Proof? Whats hell is that!?
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07-03-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 10:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There is excellent evidence for the existence of God.
You have yet to show us any. Drinking Beverage

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07-03-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Vosur, we both know their are four or so main categories Christians give of proof for God. You dismiss them as anecdotal, for example, when it's millions of testimonies... however, I would give ten:
Cosmological
Ontological
Anthropological
Teleological
Historical
Etc.
And I suppose I could put links to about 8 million webpages on the above and you'd argue them all. Give me ONE evidence piece that there is no God. ONE. I will discuss it with you on this thread rationally and then walk away from Christianity if you have one empirical piece. Heck, I'll even settle for a philosophical piece that is logical. Perhaps you'll share TBD's cup of coffee as I wait!
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07-03-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 11:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Vosur, we both know their are four or so main categories Christians give of proof for God. You dismiss them as anecdotal, for example, when it's millions of testimonies... however, I would give ten:
Cosmological
Ontological
Anthropological
Teleological
Historical
Etc.
Given the fact that I have already explained to you what I mean when I use the term "evidence", you should know that none of your examples qualify as such.

Aside from that, every philosophical argument for the existence of a higher power has been shown to be invalid and/or unsound by theists (ex. Immanuel Kant) and atheists (ex. Baron d'Holbach) alike hundreds of years ago. You have no excuse for your ignorance as a person with free access to the combined knowledge of the Internet.

(07-03-2013 11:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And I suppose I could put links to about 8 million webpages on the above and you'd argue them all. Give me ONE evidence piece that there is no God. ONE. I will discuss it with you on this thread rationally and then walk away from Christianity if you have one empirical piece. Heck, I'll even settle for a philosophical piece that is logical. Perhaps you'll share TBD's cup of coffee as I wait!
Don't hold your breath. I told you that I'm not going to bother with your dishonesty any longer and that's exactly what I intend to do.

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07-03-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 11:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Vosur, we both know their are four or so main categories Christians give of proof for God. You dismiss them as anecdotal, for example, when it's millions of testimonies... however, I would give ten:
Cosmological
Ontological
Anthropological
Teleological
Historical
Etc.
And I suppose I could put links to about 8 million webpages on the above and you'd argue them all. Give me ONE evidence piece that there is no God. ONE. I will discuss it with you on this thread rationally and then walk away from Christianity if you have one empirical piece. Heck, I'll even settle for a philosophical piece that is logical. Perhaps you'll share TBD's cup of coffee as I wait!
Even if we were to grant any of those categories as a means of obtaining solid proof for a deity(which, by the way, you will be hard-pressed to do), it will still remain non-specific. I could just as easily give you cosmological, ontological, anthropological, teleological, and historical "proofs" for a deity and declare that deity to be the flying spaghetti monster. Then we will duke it out over whose hypothetically sky-daddy is behind it all with absolutely no basis of argumentation other than our own personal convictions. It would be like two lunatics in an asylum arguing over whether the gremlins or the shape-shifting reptilians were controlling the world.

You want us to provide empirical evidence of God's non-existence?

That tells me that:

1. You are implying an argument from ignorance.
2. You don't understand that empiricism is not a compatible methodology for testing the hypothesis of a deity. Consequentially, the concept of a deity will be incapable of meeting the burden of proof.
3. You don't understand the concept of the philosophic burden of proof.
4. You don't understand that most atheists are following the burden of proof as the guideline for rejecting theistic claims.

You won't get your evidence because it doesn't exist, as is most likely the case for your deity as well.

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07-03-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:Given the fact that I have already explained to you what I mean when I use the term "evidence", you should know that none of your examples qualify as such.

Aside from that, every philosophical argument for the existence of a higher power has been shown to be invalid and/or unsound by theists (ex. Immanuel Kant) and atheists (ex. Baron d'Holbach) alike hundreds of years ago. You have no excuse for your ignorance as a person with free access to the combined knowledge of the Internet.
That's why I named five of ten; and that's why so much of these threads on this forum are so much hot air. The entire universe is a fairly large piece of empirical evidence... either it was created or it is eternal. Tell us where matter comes from--from a naturalist's perspective--and then I'll be truly impressed! PS. Feel free to "run the gauntlet" and either a) prove you exist b) prove I exist c) give evidence there is no God d) etc. challenges and I'll give you the REAL evidence. Smile
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07-03-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 12:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Given the fact that I have already explained to you what I mean when I use the term "evidence", you should know that none of your examples qualify as such.

Aside from that, every philosophical argument for the existence of a higher power has been shown to be invalid and/or unsound by theists (ex. Immanuel Kant) and atheists (ex. Baron d'Holbach) alike hundreds of years ago. You have no excuse for your ignorance as a person with free access to the combined knowledge of the Internet.
That's why I named five of ten; and that's why so much of these threads on this forum are so much hot air. The entire universe is a fairly large piece of empirical evidence... either it was created or it is eternal. Tell us where matter comes from--from a naturalist's perspective--and then I'll be truly impressed! PS. Feel free to "run the gauntlet" and either a) prove you exist b) prove I exist c) give evidence there is no God d) etc. challenges and I'll give you the REAL evidence. Smile
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We've already provided more evidence of our existence than you can for your god.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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07-03-2013, 11:13 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 12:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  PS. Feel free to "run the gauntlet" and either a) prove you exist b) prove I exist c) give evidence there is no God d) etc. challenges and I'll give you the REAL evidence. Smile


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07-03-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 08:02 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You can search for and/or read books about the discovery of the actual, physical Mt. Sinai (under Jebel El Musa), visit the plains large enough to hold the people during a war. Regardless, there are Jews living today who can trace their lineage to the 12 sons of Jacob. There are Jews in Israel today living in a Jewish nation per the many Bible prophecies of restoration following a long return. The Diaspora of nearly 2,500 years destroyed neither their cultural identity nor their Hebrew language nor their scriptures... Italian Americans and German Americans lose their native languages after a generation... as for Mr. Smith, 8 of 11 "witnesses" to the ridiculous gold plates later recanted, including his wife and son! But... how do YOU know he didn't see them? How do you have special knowledge that the Greek gods are not real? You can say God didn't do miracles then or now... and how did you come by this particular near-omniscient understanding, please? You are going to have to make the choice that either most people who have ever lived are delusional or that there may be something(s) out there that you don't know about... sorry!

Why would the fact of Mt. Sinai's existence or the large area around it be evidence that 2 million people witnessed a miracle there? You claimed that the evidence was from 2 million witnesses, and my assertion that you didn't get this evidence from those witnesses still stands as true.

It would appear that you really believe that "where there's smoke, there's fire". You seem to believe that, because Jews can trace their lineage back to Jacob, that Jacob must have really wrestled with God and that his son Joseph must have really interpreted dreams, even though the evidence you have merely proves that there once was a person named Jacob that all Jews believe they are related to... although probably not. Allow me to explain.

As you already know, the first 5 books of the bible are believed to have been written by a single author thousands of years after they happened. Why wouldn't these stories be written down immediately? Because paper didn't exist (and also because the lack of public education meant that most people didn't know what to do with it even if they had it). The first scriptures were laid down shortly after the Egyptians invented the means to do it. This means that the generations listed in the Pentateuch are more or less an educated guess. The Israelites didn't have written proof of their ancestry for several generations, so anything they wrote down was from oral tradition. How did they know that it was true and accurate? They didn't. Your belief that the Israelites can trace their lineage is hearsay of hearsay.

I think it's funny that you made fun of Joseph Smith's witness testimony even though you're still so sure of your own. It's probably funnier that you couldn't dispute the obviously false testimony of thousands who saw the sun do something which would surely destroy all life on Earth if it happened. But then again, a simple Google search will show you that the town of Fatima in Portugal really exists and that it really is large enough to carry 100,000 people... so by your standards, it must be true!

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08-03-2013, 06:07 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
It's just religious indoctrination. After decades of not having the answer, religion just dodges questions by claiming that everything (or god) is the answer without ever backing it up. Theists have just grown to accept that without questioning it. These types of people are the hardest to talk to because they're absolutely stubborn to any sort of logic.

The best theists to talk to are ones with good education whose religious training has been balanced out by proper educational training via good schooling. They are more open to accepting logical arguments and most of the theists I've talked to at my old university accepted all the science I presented to them, they just claim to believe in god for peace of mind (which is fine by me - these kinds of theists aren't the ones that cause problems in the world).

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To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
- Isaac Asimov.
Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
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08-03-2013, 06:15 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 12:25 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  It would be like two lunatics in an asylum arguing over whether the gremlins or the shape-shifting reptilians were controlling the world.
Speaking of lunatics...

Two inmates are discussing an escape. One says to the other
"I have an idea, I'll shine the flashlight out over the fence and you slide down the beam!"
The second one thinks for a minute and replies
"You think I'm crazy don't you? You'll wait till I'm halfway down and then you'll turn the fucking light off!"

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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