Proof of God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-01-2017, 05:49 AM
Proof of God
This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions typically raised by atheists: Who or what is God? What demonstrable evidence can be presented for the existence of God? If God exists, why doesn't he prove it?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

"You can't prove that there is a God."

This kind of statement ignores that there are different kinds of 'proof'.

"Can you prove that there is a God?" asked Prof Lennox. "In the mathematical sense no, but proving anything is very difficult. The word proof has two meanings. There's the rigorous meaning in maths that is very difficult to do and rare. But then there's the other meaning – beyond reasonable doubt".

That's the kind of 'proof' we can present: arguments to bring someone beyond reasonable doubt.

Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit.

How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human being or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.

Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.

But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”

The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope I have made a good start and raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Proof of God
Tsk, tsk! Schoolboy error... The bible is the claim (and promise) not the proof.

But, welcome to TTA. I hope you have fun. I'm sure we will.

Smile

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like DLJ's post
18-01-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Proof of God
Welcome, Tim, we're glad you're here.

Using the bible as proof of God is a rookie mistake. I have another thread on this but I'll sum it up here:

To use the bible and scripture as an argument for the existence of God, the theist must prove the following:
1. That there is a God
2. That there is only one God
3. That this singular God is either the author of, or inspiration for, the bible
4. That God had a son named Jesus
5. That the stories, God's instructions and Jesus' teachings have been copied down, perfectly, by scribes some 2000 years ago
6. That those instructions have not been changed or modified in any form, through translation or copy errors, since their inception.

Only once each and every one of those proofs have been met, can the bible be used as an argument.

So far, items 1 to 4 have yet to be proven. Number 5 is open to question and number 6 has already been categorically disproven.

So far, what you've posted is simply a re-hashing of long-since-discredited arguments - first cause, design, etc etc. There's nothing new here that hasn't been demonstrably proven false a thousand times before.

If you claim that your belief in God is a matter of faith, then that's fine and I won't argue the point; you're welcome to your faith and I would encourage you to practice it as you see fit (as long as, of course, no harm comes to others in this practice).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 11 users Like Heath_Tierney's post
18-01-2017, 06:49 AM
RE: Proof of God
Hello Tim! Big Grin

Looking forwards to seeing how your thread progresses.

Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Peebothuhul's post
18-01-2017, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 10:11 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Proof of God
People who have "proof" of something need no faith.
Facepalm

The end.

LMAO

BTW, there is nowhere in all of science, astronomy or cosmology (and you have no scientific reference for the statement)
that "science today admit*S every star fulfills a purpose". Just proves you know NOTHING about science or how it works.

Welcome.
TTA is on the "nut case a week" plan.
Thanks for fulfilling your purpose.
You're a freshman at Liberty or Biola, right ?

Atheists don't "typically raise" any questions about the gods. The notion is dismissed as incoherent and undefined.
But thanks in advance for you patronizing arrogance.
There's a great book : "How NOT to Share Your Faith".
http://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Share-Your...1888992301
Yes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 11 users Like Bucky Ball's post
18-01-2017, 07:17 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 07:50 AM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Proof of God
Howdy!

Let's break this down a bit.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions typically raised by atheists: Who or what is God? What demonstrable evidence can be presented for the existence of God? If God exists, why doesn't he prove it?

My first question is: Who gave you the authority to speak for god?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well.

You cannot use the bible to prove the bible. Many religions have texts that claim that they contain the absolute truth.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

Yes, theists try to claim that atheists "know, deep down in their hearts" that there really is a god.

I'm going to say this clearly: I do not believe in your god or anyone else's god.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  "You can't prove that there is a God."
This kind of statement ignores that there are different kinds of 'proof'.

I require testable, repeatable, verifiable scientific evidence.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  That's the kind of 'proof' we can present: arguments to bring someone beyond reasonable doubt.

Baseless arguments that can apply to any faith-based religion.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

This is your one warning. That statement accuses atheists of dishonesty. If you accuse me of dishonesty again, this conversation will become... less polite.

One cornerstone of science is that it is repeatable by ANYONE.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

god is too mighty for us to understand. We are mere mortals. Blah blah blah.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.

Hmm. Re-read Genesis.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature.

Abiogenesis. This is one of the best theories we have about the origins of life.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life.

If you are going to make claims like this, provide a link to the article where these claims were made.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

Again citation.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  And there is God.

Where? You have offered no proof, just bible verses.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.

Citation and context.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.

Not really.

Quote:Psalms
102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.


I see no "maintenance project".

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?


Quote:Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Second warning: Do Not Misquote Your Sources.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

Creation demands a creator? Who created the creator?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.


Bandwagon fallacy.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries.

Unfortunately, he didn't provide any useful knowledge like the recipe for PENICILLIN or maybe the plans for a printing press.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.


Many people voted for Trump.
Many people are stupid fuckers.

Oh, and you made another Bandwagon fallacy.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism.


Just reading the bible is usually enough.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?



Quote:Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.


What? We're "sinful" so we shouldn't question god?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  So have I completely answered the questions posed?

Not even close.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope I have made a good start and raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

Nope. Lots of logical fallacies and apologetics.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.

We shall see.


ETA: Curse you spellcheck! Thanks FC! Thumbsup

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 12 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
18-01-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Proof of God
Welcome. Looks like a we have a new chew toy.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Organic Chemist's post
18-01-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: Proof of God
The bible says a great many things; it is not surprising that some of them can sorta-kinda be made to seem to match what we now believe based on science. The same is done with the Koran and the Hindu scriptures. It would surprise me if somebody couldn't make similar claims based on Greek or Egyptian mythology.

The writers of the bible believed a god existed and they had considerable practical experience with everyday life and they imagined their god as being responsible so they explained it within that framework. You believe a god exists and you look at the bible and see that it explains things in a familiar framework so you assume it must be true.

If you rely on the bible as explaining reality you have to also account for things like the earth not being created at the same time as the heavens but much later. You need to explain why it doesn't call it a globe (a circle is not a globe) and why it says there are 4 corners or that you can see the entire world from a mountaintop. You need to explain why having sheep look at striped sticks would cause them to have striped offspring. The list goes on... You can't just pick and choose the things that you can pretend are close enough and call it advanced wisdom while ignoring the things that are obviously wrong.

As DLJ noted, the bible is not evidence. It is a book that contains nothing that could not be known or guessed by the people of the time. As a window into the culture of the bronze and iron ages in a small area of the planet it is valuable but that's the extent of its worth.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like unfogged's post
18-01-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 07:22 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Welcome. Looks like a we have a new chew toy.

I'm betting drive-by. It looks like a copy/paste job.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
18-01-2017, 07:33 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 07:17 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?


Quote:Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Second warning: Do Not Misquote Your Sources.

I thought he might be using a different translation and it looks close to the ISV but none of them match completely. For a book supposedly written/inspired by a god there sure are a lot of variations

http://biblehub.com/psalms/139-16.htm

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: