Proof of God
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18-01-2017, 07:46 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting.
Nope

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
Nope

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  So, let us reason a bit.
"We"? I havent seen you demonstrate that you have the ability to do so....and i remain quite sceptical at his point, having readyour post so far.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.
Bad idea. Know why? First you should demonstrate that he is even able to have a view at all, aka. exists.
Lets have a look at this problem from a unicorns point of vew. Shall we?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human being or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.
You are presupposing a hubble space telecsope exists. Please show my little grashopper brain that there is anything at all, then you can start explaining to me what a "space telescope is". One after the other please. We dont want to come to conclusions too quickly, do we?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
What do super smart aliens have to do with your idea of god?
You havent demonstrated that either ones existence at all. You have (again) presupposed it.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.
Whats the dressing to this word salad? I am allergic to vinegar....and bullshit of course.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9...
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  If we go back to Romans 1:20... Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.
Nope, wrong, *beep*
Science found out how stars work (physics), they have no "purpose", and religion has to admit to this, if it doesnt wanna look like the utter follish thing it was when it was invented by man

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.
Yes, science found this out, not religion. Your religion claims we are made of clay and human ribs.
Heavy elements (heavier than iron as we all know, right?.....RIGHT?) are made in supernovas, not in neutron stars. Neutron stars are called neutron starts because there are only neutrons left, as atoms of any elements were squashed together (protons and electrons) into neutrons when the remains of a burnt out star exceed the Chandrasekar limit of 1,4 solar masses.
When they collide they either create bigger neutron stars or a black hole. Want me to go on educating you? Or do you prefer to keep wallowing in your ignorance? Write me a PM if you are interested in the former, which i seriously doubt.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.
Why should i care what the bible says?
Read a science book, preferably about the life cycle of stars. Makes for very interesting and educating reading. You seem to be in need of something like that.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Look at Psalm 139:16.
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.
So far you havent even convinced me that this "force" (from navarone?) exists. How can you talk about its qualities before you demonstrate that it exists? Intellectual laziness?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  But a few things I do know.
Indeed, there seem to be a lot of things you believe but only a few you know. Do you know the difference between knowledge and belief?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists.
It doesnt. Words in a book alone never have been evidence for anything and never will be. Particularly not for the existence of someting you call "god" (which you didnt even bother to properly define).

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
What is "orderly"? How is the universe "ordely"? Why does that point to a creator (or maybe a createss?)?
Facts are: There are parts of the universe with higher order and some with less. Thats the very reason we are able to exist. We couldnt exist in an all orderly or all disorderly universe. Get yourself educated about entropy. Its funny that the followers of Jesus often point at entropy, and always in the wrong way.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible says:
Why should i care what the bible says?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing
Funny, thats exactly the same the winner of the lottery said last weekend.
Why do you think there "has" to be an organizing principle?
There are numerous possible explanations to the miracle of existence. Why again should i buy your story? Because the bible says so?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries.
They didnt. Why should they have? They were just as wrong as everybody else back then. As a matter of fact they were more wrong than anyone else, because, you know, Israel and Judah werent the ares where the great ancient astronomers, mathematicians, etc. were. Those areas were further to the east, where religion now dominates....and ignorance.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.”
Why should i care what the bible says?
Thet earth isnt suspended on "nothing". Nothing cant hold anything. Didnt ancient bible writers know of Newtonian physics or the theory of relativity?
Jesus, how again did we develop those theories? Ah, yeah....science.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22)
Sphere or cirlce? Make up your mind. One is wrong.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
Many people dont....
How do we find out what and who is right or wrong? What is your method of sseparating right from wrong in your model of reality? Reading an ancient book?
So far you havent shown to know what "reaosnable" means, quite the contrary to be honest.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism.
Does it give the correct answers? How do you find out what is correct and what not? See above.
What is "satisfactory" to you? What you like or what is true/fits the data?

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not.
Correct, you have not. Not even a single one.

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  However, at the same time, I hope I have made a good start and raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You havent raised any quesions. All you did is try to proselytisze. Not very convincingly actually, because you have demonstrated the disability to think rationally, being reasonable, your lack of understanding of physics and your narrow minded bias towards "i dont know....goddidit...cuz ilikeit".

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
Sorry, no need for me to ask someone who has no clue what he/she is talking about. Particularly not reason and logic. If you like a challenge, then please take the challenge to actually learn something about the things you wrote, by putting your crutch (the bible) aside, using reason, logic and the scientific method, because....it works. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to read this.

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18-01-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 07:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 07:17 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Second warning: Do Not Misquote Your Sources.

I thought he might be using a different translation and it looks close to the ISV but none of them match completely. For a book supposedly written/inspired by a god there sure are a lot of variations

http://biblehub.com/psalms/139-16.htm

Go figure. Consider

Hope he comes back. Be interesting to hear how he reconciles all those variations. Especially the apocrypha... Evil_monster

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18-01-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Proof of God
How often do we have to do this dance?

[Image: god.jpg]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-01-2017, 08:10 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 08:16 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Proof of God
Hello Tim, welcome, I will firstly ask you to understand if some people here seem hostile to your message, it is due to the fact that we heard it before many times, some people here are already tired of the way theists presuppose the existence of god in the way you just did, and most are also tired in the way some theists think atheists do not know the scripture, most of us do, some here studied the bible quite extensively.

That being said, I'm open to any argument for the existence of god being beyond reasonable doubt, literally any kind of argument.

I will be especially interested if I can't use the same argument to make a case for the existence of Zeus.

And I will be most interested of all if you happen to have any way to logically go from "there might be a god of some kind" stance to "and this god is likely Yahweh, who hates gays" stance, that would be, having any way of logically going from Deism to Theism.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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18-01-2017, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 08:42 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions typically raised by atheists: Who or what is God? What demonstrable evidence can be presented for the existence of God? If God exists, why doesn't he prove it?

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

"You can't prove that there is a God."

This kind of statement ignores that there are different kinds of 'proof'.

"Can you prove that there is a God?" asked Prof Lennox. "In the mathematical sense no, but proving anything is very difficult. The word proof has two meanings. There's the rigorous meaning in maths that is very difficult to do and rare. But then there's the other meaning – beyond reasonable doubt".

That's the kind of 'proof' we can present: arguments to bring someone beyond reasonable doubt.

Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit.

How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human being or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.

Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.

But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”

The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope I have made a good start and raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.


Just in skimming through your post I saw multiple fallacies. For instance, the first bible passage you quote is self contradictory. It speaks of "invisible things" being "clearly seen". That which is invisible can not also be clearly seen.

But The main fallacy That theism commits, at its very starting point, is the fallacy of the stolen concept. This occurs when one plucks a concept out of it's proper place in the hierarchy of knowledge and uses it while denying, questioning or ignoring those concepts it logically depends on. In the case of the Bible, the concept being stolen is consciousness. The writers of the Bible give metaphysical primacy to consciousness, but consciousness requires an object, it presupposes existence. The writers of the bible pluck this concept out of its proper place and use it, unconnected to reality, while denying its base.

So I'm afraid that the whole Bible must be thrown out as a source of truth.

In fact the very notion of a god is based on this same stolen concept (which amounts to asserting consciousness without existence). So it must be rejected. To believe such a thing exists one must accept this and many more stolen concepts. This makes belief in a god irrational.

Any argument for such a notion as god must also commit this same fallacy and invalidates itself. And since the concept of truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence, and "God" assumes the primacy of consciousness, The notion of God is incompatible with truth. So any argument for a god must also be unsound.

The very notion of a proof for God is a self defeating proposition. It makes use of the primacy of existence while at the same time denying the primacy of existence.

I'm afraid there's no escape from these problems for theists. There is no way to make a valid or sound argument for "God". That's why great minds such as Thomas Aquinas weren't able to do it. No one has been able nor will they ever be able to.

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18-01-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism.
Why does God need a bible? Wouldn't it be easier, more easily understood, and far more believable if God simply showed up for the whole world to see and said "here's what I expect"? Consider

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18-01-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 07:48 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  How often do we have to do this dance?

[Image: god.jpg]

You forgot Harry Potter.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-01-2017, 08:58 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 09:04 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 08:49 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism.
Why does God need a bible? Wouldn't it be easier, more easily understood, and far more believable if God simply showed up for the whole world to see and said "here's what I expect"? Consider
Or even better, if everyone knew that this god does exist and what he wants from us by instinct, like the way we know how to breathe.

We can still hold our breath, and even suffocate ourselves by many ways, so no violation of volition.

@Tim We are not "leaded to atheism" because of the questions that the bible does not answer satisfactorily, we are because of the ones it does.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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18-01-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 08:49 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Why does God need a bible? Wouldn't it be easier, more easily understood, and far more believable if God simply showed up for the whole world to see and said "here's what I expect"? Consider

yabut, free will man!

Far better to create the universe and embed all sorts of subtle clues that it formed naturally over billions of years, then make a few brief appearances to semi-nomadic bronze age individuals, inspire many over centuries to write stories and have them cobbled together into a book that is contradictory, cryptic, and just plain wrong in many cases, then disappear and watch to see who will believe in magic despite all the evidence to the contrary.

ta da!

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18-01-2017, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 09:16 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 09:05 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 08:49 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Why does God need a bible? Wouldn't it be easier, more easily understood, and far more believable if God simply showed up for the whole world to see and said "here's what I expect"? Consider

yabut, free will man!

I'm sure you know that Unfogged, but for ones who might read, even if this god showed up for the whole world that wouldn't interfere with free will, people would still be able to go against what he wants, but they would at least actually know god and be able to really decide instead of just borning into the wrong culture with the wrong religion and being punished for it with eternal torment in a lake of fire.

(Supposing that free will does exist, Spoiler: It doesn't)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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