Proof of God
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18-01-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 09:05 AM)unfogged Wrote:  yabut, free will man!

Far better to create the universe and embed all sorts of subtle clues that it formed naturally over billions of years, then make a few brief appearances to semi-nomadic bronze age individuals, inspire many over centuries to write stories and have them cobbled together into a book that is contradictory, cryptic, and just plain wrong in many cases, then disappear and watch to see who will believe in magic despite all the evidence to the contrary.

ta da!
Wow, very good.. er... points. I'm converted now. Tongue

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18-01-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Proof of God
[Image: CezFs_kWQAAlJAT.jpg]


Seems legit........



I'm a double atheist. I don't believe in your god or your politician.
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18-01-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 09:09 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 09:05 AM)unfogged Wrote:  yabut, free will man!

I'm sure you know that Unfogged, but for ones who might read, even if this god showed up for the whole world that wouldn't interfere with free will, people would still be able to go against what he wants, but they would at least actually know god and be able to really decide instead of just borning into the wrong culture with the wrong religion and being punished for it with eternal torment in a lake of fire.

Absolutely. Their own theology refutes the free will argument because Satan supposedly rebelled against god and yet had clear knowledge of his existence and powers. It is all a house of cards.

Quote:(Supposing that free will does exist, Spoiler: It doesn't)

Agreed; I see no way that it could except in a trivial sense.

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18-01-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: Proof of God
Dear, drive-by,

You can't empirically prove God with the Bible. It doesn't work like that.

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18-01-2017, 09:55 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

That would be nice, but I'll settle for a Talking Snake™. Got one? If so, please courier it via express prepaid messenger to My house at your earliest convenience (ask your omniscient imaginary friend for the shipping address).

Quote:So, let us reason a bit.

You first. Kindly explain why you cheerfully accept as "truth" one particular old book that describes a flood that never happened, an undead rabbi, and the aforementioned Talking Snake™.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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18-01-2017, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 10:03 AM by Ace.)
RE: Proof of God
oh joy, another one Dodgy

here's the really short version of your entire argument is:
Quote:Tim: I'm a dumb fuck

the long version:

(18-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tim Wrote:  This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions typically raised by atheists: Who or what is God? What demonstrable evidence can be presented for the existence of God? If God exists, why doesn't he prove it?

I can already tell your gonna fail at proving anything other than how much fail you can put into 1 threat and considering how most god proof threads that have been made in the history of the internet yours won't contain anything that hasn't been beaten like a dead horse

Quote:The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

"You can't prove that there is a God." This kind of statement ignores that there are different kinds of 'proof'.

"Can you prove that there is a God?" asked Prof Lennox. "In the mathematical sense no, but proving anything is very difficult. The word proof has two meanings. There's the rigorous meaning in maths that is very difficult to do and rare. But then there's the other meaning – beyond reasonable doubt".

That's the kind of 'proof' we can present: arguments to bring someone beyond reasonable doubt.[/quote]

and you've just admitted that you FAILED.... arguments no matter how indisputable the logic have no validity without empirical evidence

Quote:Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

empirical evidence and nothing else will be accepted in science

Quote:So, let us reason a bit.

How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human being or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.

this explains NOTHING, at best its gibberish

Quote:Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

so now we're moving genetics... as if your failed attempts at philosophy weren't enough, you had to add biology to it

1% greater ? greater how ?
the word "greater" means nothing without any quantifiable values to assign it

you have only claimed that god is greater yet like before you've presented no evidence to validate that claim

Quote:And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

I'll leave this here

Quote:And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

more claims yet no evidence... the bible doesn't prov the bible, only an idiot would claim otherwise

Quote:Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

this is probably the only true thing you've stated so far and there are still stars because THERE IS A LOT OF EM OUT THERE

Quote:Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.

I've read it yet its still just a claim with no evidence

Quote:Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

many bible version don't mention embryo
also you haven't proven that they honestly knew what they were talking about and nothing about that verse even implies DNA

Quote:So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.

without a definition you can't even try to prove it exists since a definition is a description of it, without it you won't even know if its what your looking for even if you find it you idiot

theists have always failed at defining god coherently, all your doing is trying to avoid that failiur by avoiding the problem of defining what your looking for
its like trying to find water without even knowing what water even is

Quote:But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists.
no it doesn't, it only makes claims

Quote:It encourages us to build faith in God

blind faith means believing something to be true even in absence of or in presence of contradicting evidence in order to maintain preconceived beliefs

Quote:not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
this part would hold truth but what you've said before it makes it lose all meaning

Quote:The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

why is there something instead of nothing ?
I'll link the video to save my self the annoyance of explaining that

Quote:Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

nope, the writers were making shit up as they went along
[Image: EnclosedEarth.jpg]

Quote:The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope I have made a good start and raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.

the bible talks of talking snakes and donkey's, man living inside a fish stomach without dying, turning water to wine, walking on waters, virgin human birth, making a guy from dirt, making a woman from a guy's rib, global flood and other absurdities that are well suited for fiction
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18-01-2017, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2017 10:28 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Proof of God
Romans 1:19, 20: Observable to all people and religions, which is why many gods from various religions are nature-based.

Isaiah 40: Isaiah pranced around the city naked at God’s request:

Isaiah 20:3-Then the LORD said, "My servant Isaiah has been walking around naked and barefoot for the last three years. This is a sign--a symbol of the terrible troubles I will bring upon Egypt and Ethiopia."

Is this really someone you are pinning your beliefs on? If someone did this today, people would think they lost grip with reality. Also, his statement about grasshoppers if you believe a god lives in the clouds--natural progression of beliefs and magical thinking.

Psalm 36: Many religions feel the source of life is based on their own gods and their own creation stories. What makes your god real and the ones they worship fake? Pick any religion and google their creation story.

Romans 1:20 Again, no different than any other religion on the planet that believe(s) their god(s) created life, earth, etc. Again, what makes your God different and special?

Psalm 102:25-27 Hinduism has religious writings older than the Bible. Their grasp of astronomy for their time blows any “science” you will find in the Bible out of the water. Additionally, they believe(d) the world would also have an ending or be destroyed by Shiva (Hindu deity). As such, if you are basing your belief in God around similar beliefs in Hinduism, why not believe in Hindu gods if this is your requirement for belief?

Hebrews 3:4 Again, natural progression of belief via magical thinking.

Job 26:7: With a book as big as the Bible there are bound to be some hits, some misses. Miss: Firmament. Miss: Well, here right in Job 38:19-20:

“What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Why is this a miss? Because the biblical belief at the time was that the light (i.e. the sun) went somewhere at night. Where did it go? Well, to the underworld, of course. Biblical science for the win!

Titus 1:6 Really??????
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18-01-2017, 10:15 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 07:48 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  How often do we have to do this dance?

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more times than necessary
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18-01-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Proof of God
I've said it before and I'll say it again: First-time posters should have a Terms of Service agreement that they can't just scroll down to the end and press AGREE without actually reading it. And that TOS agreement should have the boilerplate chestnuts, such as burden of proof, bible is the claim, etc. Then, their first post must be approved by an admin and if this post breaks the rules of the TOS then it doesn't get posted. Such energy wasted on a drive-by sheep.

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18-01-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Proof of God
(18-01-2017 10:19 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Such energy wasted on a drive-by sheep.

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