Proof of Heaven.
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29-03-2013, 04:45 PM
Proof of Heaven.
This is the title of a book by neuro surgeon Eben Alexander, I have just read.

Dr Alexander fell victim to bacterial meningitis a disease extremely rare in adults, and usually fatal or leaving the victim in a vegetative state. During a five day coma, followed by a miraculous recovery he claims to have under gone an ultra vivid and realistic near death experience. First he finds himself in "the realm of the earth worm's view" a rather dreary jelly like domain. There is slow dirge like music, plopping mud, through which the heads of animals appear, not too bad, but in no way pleasant. The Gate, leading to The Core (ultimate) is far more impressive with spiritual orbs of light, serene villages with contented villagers, inexplicable sense of peace and a pervading sense of being loved. All this and a kind of meeting with God, initiated by a beautiful creature on a butterfly's wing .

In this experience Dr Alexander primarily felt a great sense of being loved, that all was essentially well, evil was small (universally) and essential in some 'learning realms'.As all of this occurred in what appeared as timelessness, he has difficulty in explaining things, as does the reader in understanding.

Dr Alexander appears to be a very emotional man, extremely close to his adoptive family and natural one, and this seems reflected in his views relating to the experience. Would a person from an ultra dysfunctional family relate in such a positive way? Butterfly wings, angelic orbs, and experiencing phenomena in timeless ness, I must say, I found rather annoying.

Perhaps of more interest is the doctors claim that the neo cortex of his brain was so ravished as to make thoughts or dreams impossible for the duration of his coma.
He is most intense in his claim that his experience was more real than secular reality and fully realises the doubts of his peers, who like his former self are strict materialists.

I found the book readable and quite interesting, without being overly impressed in any way. Even if their is some truth is his assertions, the book title belies actuality, and in any case such a phenomenon would reflect merely the tip of any celestial ice bergs and how they might relate to all of us.
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29-03-2013, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:11 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Proof of Heaven.
******

Those who administer and moderate in order to exercise personal agenda merely feed into the negative stereotype of Atheism
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29-03-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: Proof of Heaven.
(29-03-2013 04:50 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  
(29-03-2013 04:45 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  This is the title of a book by neuro surgeon Eben Alexander, I have just read.

Dr Alexander fell victim to bacterial meningitis a disease extremely rare in adults, and usually fatal or leaving the victim in a vegetative state. During a five day coma, followed by a miraculous recovery he claims to have under gone an ultra vivid and realistic near death experience.

Totally normal results of stressed brain.

Alexander, like Spetzler, wants desperately to believe in a god, afterlife, and all of that. He is not, however, an expert in head injury.

Just another well-meaning person wanting to believe and making up the fairy tales to believe.

--J.D.

I would have thought a neuro surgeon had some clues about brain infections and injuries.
Still he is making a big, if not very confusing call and I'll just have to wait to find out.

Extinction of course will leave me completely out of the equation!Consider
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29-03-2013, 05:06 PM
RE: Proof of Heaven.
Sam Harris had a go at this, with replies from some nut and a response.

Sam Harris' - http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

bernardokastrup Reply 1 - http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/10/s...ander.html

Sam Harris' Reply - http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/scien...k-of-death

bernardokastrup Reply 2 - http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/11/s...ed_13.html

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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29-03-2013, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:11 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Proof of Heaven.
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29-03-2013, 05:21 PM
RE: Proof of Heaven.
(29-03-2013 05:07 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  
(29-03-2013 05:01 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would have thought a neuro surgeon had some clues about brain infections and injuries.

As with all things, only if they actually study it. If he bothered to read the works of Plum & Posner and also Jennetta and Teasdale, he might understand altered consciousness. If he kept up with the literature on stressed brain, he would know just exactly what patients can imagine. Hell, if he bothered to see a patient in delirium or "sun downing" he would appreciate this.

Physicians, surgeons, lawyers, NASA engineers, Mr. Smoothy Ice Cream drivers--they are all people. They either engage critical thinking or they do not. In this case, he did not.

Quote:Extinction of course will leave me completely out of the equation!Consider

It is very simple: the periods he cannot recall--and he cannot even recall the passage of lost time--that is where you "go." If you have ever truly lost consciousness, that is where you "go."

Nowhere.

And, you know, I feel free to take him to task because he should bloody know better. The basic anatomy of consciousness has been known for half-a century. The mechanisms for losing consciousness have similarly been known.

--J.D.

I am sure he will be happy to have you take him to task; we can all learn various things one from the other. Schopenhaeur held that when we die we return to where we came from. Both theists and atheists use that one!
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29-03-2013, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:02 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Proof of Heaven.
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29-03-2013, 05:26 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2013 05:30 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Proof of Heaven.
(29-03-2013 04:45 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  This is the title of a book by neuro surgeon Eben Alexander, I have just read.

Dr Alexander fell victim to bacterial meningitis a disease extremely rare in adults, and usually fatal or leaving the victim in a vegetative state. During a five day coma, followed by a miraculous recovery he claims to have under gone an ultra vivid and realistic near death experience. First he finds himself in "the realm of the earth worm's view" a rather dreary jelly like domain. There is slow dirge like music, plopping mud, through which the heads of animals appear, not too bad, but in no way pleasant. The Gate, leading to The Core (ultimate) is far more impressive with spiritual orbs of light, serene villages with contented villagers, inexplicable sense of peace and a pervading sense of being loved. All this and a kind of meeting with God, initiated by a beautiful creature on a butterfly's wing .

In this experience Dr Alexander primarily felt a great sense of being loved, that all was essentially well, evil was small (universally) and essential in some 'learning realms'.As all of this occurred in what appeared as timelessness, he has difficulty in explaining things, as does the reader in understanding.

Dr Alexander appears to be a very emotional man, extremely close to his adoptive family and natural one, and this seems reflected in his views relating to the experience. Would a person from an ultra dysfunctional family relate in such a positive way? Butterfly wings, angelic orbs, and experiencing phenomena in timeless ness, I must say, I found rather annoying.

Perhaps of more interest is the doctors claim that the neo cortex of his brain was so ravished as to make thoughts or dreams impossible for the duration of his coma.
He is most intense in his claim that his experience was more real than secular reality and fully realises the doubts of his peers, who like his former self are strict materialists.

I found the book readable and quite interesting, without being overly impressed in any way. Even if their is some truth is his assertions, the book title belies actuality, and in any case such a phenomenon would reflect merely the tip of any celestial ice bergs and how they might relate to all of us.
I am having such experiences often - only healthy, sober... The emotions and other sensations. No visions or audio, no out of body experiences. I know of multiple healthy people who went through such experiences as well, no meningitis necessary.
I do not believe emotions play here a role. Other such people are not nearly so emotional, for example here is a scientist and a university professor who went through a mystical experience in his 60's. I'm not very emotional either.

Btw, I have no difficulties in understanding that experience, Theosophists were always interested in them and have developed a corresponding cosmology to classify it. The doc's experience fits the standard pattern. I know you must think developing a cosmology for such things is excessive (and perhaps it is), I just say how it shows such experiences can be analyzed and classified. It is not a random hallucinatory shit like on LSD, it follows a standard pattern.

Do you want a book about that? No answers in it probably, no neurology, but it shows this is a real phenomenon that occurs in many kinds of people in every society.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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29-03-2013, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2013 05:33 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Proof of Heaven.
All the proof's I've ever read of an afterlife, heaven, hell or god. Always relies upon peoples feelings, emotions, and hallucinations. Which later instead of questioning their feelings, assert them as truth.

Feelings after all are simply an internal reaction to events in the world. About half of that time our emotions invoke irrational responses, upon subjects that require further thought before a rational action can be made.

Personally having experience with hallucinations through psilocybin has shown me how powerful the mind when it's in distress. Those feelings, hallucinations, and emotions are real as they relate to my mind, but did not in any way accurately reflect reality when under the influence of such a thing.

Extreme emotions, lack of sleep, drugs, and many many other things can bring about powerful feelings, but that doesn't mean that it's true. It means that your brain is under some kind of stress or influence that you may need a break from.

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29-03-2013, 05:44 PM
RE: Proof of Heaven.
As a man of science he should know better than to call his anecdotal experience proof of anything, let alone an afterlife.

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