Proof of Jesus?
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19-11-2012, 05:43 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
Trypho's words,
"You [Christians] have listened to an unfounded rumour and have invented some
kind of a Christ for yourselves"
What he is really saying that Jesus was the unfounded
rumour for on the basis that he existed they invented
the idea that he was the Christ!

Trypho was denying that there was
evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ.
Justin made no effort to reply to
this charge.
He just tried to show that Jesus was the Messiah.
Justin couldn't come up with any evidence that Jesus existed so he just evaded
the problem.
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19-11-2012, 06:19 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
Hold up a minute! Fuck Jesus; I wanna know wtf is going on with Bucky and Free. I just read Bucky's rep report on Free, and I need to knoiw if I woke up in the Twilight Zone, or what the fuck?!?!

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19-11-2012, 06:27 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
(19-11-2012 06:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Hold up a minute! Fuck Jesus; I wanna know wtf is going on with Bucky and Free. I just read Bucky's rep report on Free, and I need to know if I woke up in the Twilight Zone, or what the fuck?!?!
What's wrong with a vigorous debate ?

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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19-11-2012, 06:33 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
(19-11-2012 06:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-11-2012 06:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Hold up a minute! Fuck Jesus; I wanna know wtf is going on with Bucky and Free. I just read Bucky's rep report on Free, and I need to know if I woke up in the Twilight Zone, or what the fuck?!?!
What's wrong with a vigorous debate ?
Vigorous debate my ass. You two were slinging mud like a coupla politicos. And now it's all unicorns and glitter?

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19-11-2012, 06:42 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
S'all beyond my understanding, regardless of the mud...

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19-11-2012, 07:27 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
Trypho did not exist. He was a literary invention of Justin Martyr, that he invented to argue with. Obviously he's not going to invent someone , or something he can't win against. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_with_Trypho Thus anything he says is Justin speaking, for purposes of knocking down. A straw-man, in it's most obvious form. Justin Martyr is not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. Trypho didn't "write" anything. Justin Martyr used him as a literary device. Anything Trypho says is just Justin talking to himself.

The argument in Justin Martyr is that they invented a man named Jesus, and THEN elevated him to be a Christ.
The argument about the son of Zeus is a Red Herring, as Justin was well aware that the "virgin birth" was NOT about a gynecologically abnormal birth, but about a "sign".
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth

Origen is also not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. There is no known extant copy of Celsus. We certainly have no reason to take Origen's word for anything. He wrote his argument so he would appear to win.

Jerome is a self admitted liar. He is totally unreliable. Nothing any these men wrote was "objective" in any way, nor can any of then be relied upon. They wrote what they wrote to support themselves, and their positions. The entire augment is a waste of time. In an era of pious fraud, nothing anyone says is reliable, especially when writing to appear to win an argument.

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19-11-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
(19-11-2012 07:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Obviously he's not going to invent someone , or something he can't win against.

I got that Gwynnie thing all fucked up, huh? Weeping

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19-11-2012, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2012 11:39 AM by Free.)
RE: Proof of Jesus?
Quote:Trypho did not exist. He was a literary invention of Justin Martyr, that he invented to argue with. Obviously he's not going to invent someone , or something he can't win against. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_with_Trypho Thus anything he says is Justin speaking, for purposes of knocking down.


This was known in that conversation, but not made obvious in the text. The debate had actually started on another thread, as evidenced by me quoting Rook Hawkins at the start of that thread. The quote had to come from somewhere, and it was actually part of a long diatribe of his.


Quote:Justin Martyr is not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. Trypho didn't "write" anything. Justin Martyr used him as a literary device. Anything Trypho says is just Justin talking to himself.

Although I agree with this, the point wasn't about losing the argument, but since Rook Hawkins mentioned that Justin didn't mention the TF in his Dialogue, we demonstrated that there would be no need for it.

Quote:The argument in Justin Martyr is that they invented a man named Jesus, and THEN elevated him to be a Christ.

Afraid not. The quotes are quite clear that Justin has Trypho making positive claims that a man named Jesus existed and was crucified. To demonstrate this we will start with the first quote regarding what Trypho says about the "Christ:"

Quote:Trypho wrote:

1.)But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all.

2.)And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing.

As we both know, Jews most definitely separate Christ from Jesus, and that is what Trypho is doing above. He's not speaking about "Jesus" above, but about the Christians inventing a Christ, a Messiah. Notice how he says, "But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all."

In # 1, he is not speaking about Jesus, but instead about the Christ whom the Jews believe in. He is not doubting that "Jesus" had been born, or that he existed. He is saying that he does not know if the Christ he's waiting for has yet been born, or even exists anywhere. Again he is not speaking about Jesus at all in this quote.

In #2, he is again speaking about a Christ in general, and not about Jesus specifically. He is telling Justin that the Christians have invented a "Christ," and not that they invented a "Jesus."

To think that Trypho would be saying they invented a Jesus would contradict the following two statements by Trypho:

Quote:Trypho wrote:

Then Trypho objected, "The quotation is not 'Behold a virgin will conceive and bear a Son,' but 'Behold a young woman will conceive and bear a son,' and so forth, as you quoted it. Furthermore, the prophecy as a whole refers to Hezekiah, and it can be shown that the events described in the prophecy were fulfilled in him.

[2] Besides, in Greek mythology there is a story of how Perseus was born of Danae, while she was a virgin, when the one whom they call Zeus descended upon her in the form of a golden shower.

You Christians should be ashamed of yourselves, therefore, to repeat the same kind of stories as these men, and you should, on the contrary, acknowledge this Jesus to be a man of mere human origin. If you can prove from the Scriptures that He !is the Christ, confess that He was considered worthy to be chosen as such because of His perfect observance of the Law, but do not dare to speak of miracles, lest you be accused of talking nonsense, like the Greeks."

Quote:Trypho wrote:

You place your hope in a crucified man, and still expect to receive favors from God when you disregard His commandments.

Now in the two quotes above, Trypho is not talking about the "Christ," but about Jesus. As a Jew, he differentiates between the two because he does not accept Jesus as being any kind of Christ. And now he states quite clearly that the Christians need to acknowledge that "Jesus to be a man of mere human origin," and also that the Christians have placed their hope in a "crucified man."

Seriously, this is precisely how that dialogue is to be viewed. It makes no sense to view it as a claim that "Jesus" did not exist, since Trypho positively states that he did exist by referencing him as a man of mere human origin who was crucified. Again, Trypho is really claiming the Christians created a Christ for themselves, and that they superimposed their Christ upon this Jesus fellow.

Take another close look at it. You'll see it.



Quote:The argument about the son of Zeus is a Red Herring, as Justin was well aware that the "virgin birth" was NOT about a gynecologically abnormal birth, but about a "sign".
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth

Probably true, but at the very least what we see is that Justin- around AD 135- believed in the nativity as described in the Gospels, which demonstrates that it was in the Gospels at least in the early part of the 2nd century, which is evidence to support how closely those ancient gospels would resemble what we have today.

Quote:Origen is also not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. There is no known extant copy of Celsus. We certainly have no reason to take Origen's word for anything. He wrote his argument so he would appear to win.

But that is not really the argument. The argument was more complex. For example, Origen positively claims that Josephus "was not believing Jesus to be the Christ," and also, "Why didn't Origen use the TF to prove the existence of Jesus."

My argument addressed those two points specifically. Again, the point of Origen's argument was not to prove the existence of Jesus, because it has been demonstrated that Celsus already believed that Jesus existed as a mere human being. Therefore, there would be no need to use the TF to prove the existence of Jesus, and as we suspect, using the TF- if it was worded to demonstrate that Jospehus was "not believing Jesus to be the Christ"- would obviously hurt Origen's rebuttal.

Quote:Jerome is a self admitted liar. He is totally unreliable. Nothing any these men wrote was "objective" in any way, nor can any of then be relied upon. They wrote what they wrote to support themselves, and their positions. The entire augment is a waste of time. In an era of pious fraud, nothing anyone says is reliable, especially when writing to appear to win an argument.

I disagree. Liars or not, the point is that their works demonstrate what they believed, and confirm beliefs held by people earlier than Jerome and the others. It creates a "chain of evidence" to demonstrate the earliest beliefs of the Christians in antiquity.

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19-11-2012, 09:24 AM
RE: Proof of Jesus?
(19-11-2012 06:33 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(19-11-2012 06:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What's wrong with a vigorous debate ?
Vigorous debate my ass. You two were slinging mud like a coupla politicos. And now it's all unicorns and glitter?



We've simply agreed to be civil for the purpose of furthering the points of the debate. Nothing gets accomplished with mud-slinging and ad hominems.

We've simply matured to higher criticism.

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19-11-2012, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2012 05:59 PM by Kritter.)
RE: Proof of Jesus?
(19-11-2012 07:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Trypho did not exist. He was a literary invention of Justin Martyr, that he invented to argue with. Obviously he's not going to invent someone , or something he can't win against. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_with_Trypho Thus anything he says is Justin speaking, for purposes of knocking down. A straw-man, in it's most obvious form. Justin Martyr is not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. Trypho didn't "write" anything. Justin Martyr used him as a literary device. Anything Trypho says is just Justin talking to himself.

The argument in Justin Martyr is that they invented a man named Jesus, and THEN elevated him to be a Christ.
The argument about the son of Zeus is a Red Herring, as Justin was well aware that the "virgin birth" was NOT about a gynecologically abnormal birth, but about a "sign".
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth

Origen is also not going to write a book in which he loses an argument. There is no known extant copy of Celsus. We certainly have no reason to take Origen's word for anything. He wrote his argument so he would appear to win.

Jerome is a self admitted liar. He is totally unreliable. Nothing any these men wrote was "objective" in any way, nor can any of then be relied upon. They wrote what they wrote to support themselves, and their positions. The entire augment is a waste of time. In an era of pious fraud, nothing anyone says is reliable, especially when writing to appear to win an argument.
Hell in all my years of debating this non existent character I never knew Trypho was a fake but it's going to take more than Wiki to prove it.
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