Proof of the Resurrection
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27-03-2016, 02:23 AM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 02:51 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(26-03-2016 10:52 PM)SallyBr0wn Wrote:  I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but my husband is a strong born again Christian still. He's highly intelligent and it is difficult to go head to head with him because he's well read and I've only been an atheist for less than a year.

He posted this article and I was hoping some could help me on this. I know it's a lot to ask, but I need any help that I can get. I'm also going to look things up. I just listened to this video and I thought it was good and made sense. https://youtu.be/H7OJW9lxVO4

But I also see why the article makes sense to believers.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/east...josh2.html

Thank you!!!
Before I begin, I ought to point out that it is more accurate to refer to me as an Anti-theist rather than an Atheist.

I didn't find either the video or the articles particularly compelling. I can go into the whys and wherefores if necessary. However, there are far more fundamental questions that need to be addressed.

A compelling case for the existence of jesus has yet to be made. The existence of jesus is, in fact, in great doubt. So, before we can talk about the resurrection, we firstly need to prove that jesus actually existed. Otherwise, we are in danger of putting the cart before the horse. Here's the best video on the subject that I am aware of:




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27-03-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(26-03-2016 11:33 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  
(26-03-2016 11:29 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm on my phone or else I would post this for you. But look up Bart Ehrmans talk on who wrote the gospels on you tube. That will explain a lot of the article away re:witnesses and who actually wrote the gospels and why you find some similarities and some differences.

The OT does not mention jesus in prophecy. That is a fabrication by the Christian church. The OT does not mention Jesus, which is why many Jews dispute Jesus being godly. Look up rabbi Michael Skobac. He has several you tube videos that explain this in detail.

i thought Melchizedek was the mention of jesus. thats what my preacher said anyway.

As Jenny said, "That is a fabrication by the Christian church."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-03-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
I'm not an expert in such things. I'm just a humble, cheeseburger eating guy that runs around Walmart like a chicken. This may seem strange, but it isn't. I'm really just interested in the response. That is what matters most. How do people react to a guy that acts like a chicken?

With that being said, here are my humble thoughts. I'm just going to look at the "Facts" as mentioned by the author. Take it all with a grain of salt. Eat your cheeseburgers and don't be surprised when you see a chicken.

FACT #1: BROKEN ROMAN SEAL
Depending on how you look at it, there are many fallacies here. Instead of mentioning all of them - since most people I talk to aren't familiar with a single one of them by name - I'll say this:

It is assuming that since the Bible says it happened - that it happened. This is not evidence.

Essentially, the argument is going like this:

Harry: You know Bob, I don't think I believe in God anymore. The Bible doesn't offer me any external evidence and all of the secular evidence points me the other way.
Bob: Well Harry, the Bible says Jesus was resurrected. Now, there was a Roman seal on the tomb and we know the Roman empire would have rained hell on them had anyone broken that seal.
Harry: But, I just said the Bible doesn't present any external evidence.
Bob: Well, didn't the Roman Empire have a lot of power?
Harry: Yes...
Bob: And didn't they put seals on tombs to show their authority?
Harry: I am not sure...but, okay.
Bob: There you have proof Jesus is the Son of God and was resurrected on the third day!
Harry: But, Bob, that doesn't feel right to me.
Bob: That's the devil playing with you. Do you want to burn in Hell forever?

What were we talking about again?

FACT #2: EMPTY TOMB
Same thing as before. Here is the initial argument. We'll use two new people. Harry is currently burning in Hell.

Bertha: I'm telling you Gertrude, the tomb was empty!
Gertrude: How do you know that though?

Bertha: Well, because if it hadn't been empty, then wouldn't everyone in Jeruselum have noticed the lie? Wouldn't they have pointed it out and Christianity would have failed to exist?
Gertrude: Bertha, that is assuming that Christianity really got started there. You are using the Bible to make that point. Yet, all of the earliest works of the Bible are from other locations. They might mention something happened in an area, but that doesn't make it so. Besides, people today can see all of the evidence against the vaccination -> autism conspiracy theory and they believe it. What was to stop some people back then from believing in another resurrection myth?

Bertha: Well, get my britches in a brunch! You know John Smith? That nice fellow on TV that asks us to donate money to help keep his beautiful jet?
Gertrude: Yes.

Bertha: Well, he said Jesus is real. He also said the tomb was empty. In fact, I just heard it last weekend while I was shaving my cat.
Gertrude: But, he wasn't there Bertha.

Bertha: Are you calling him a liar?
Gertrude: Well, no. It's just...

Bertha: You're persecuting me. Do you know that. Of all things! I'm shocked!
Gertrude: ....

Bertha: Listen sweetie. A couple hundred years later, someone named Josephus wrote about Jesus. And all of these other authority figures of their time commented on him. Now, I ask you, how do you like those apples?
Gertrude: They're sour. Once again, none of them were there and none of them witnessed it. They're speculating or commenting and in the case of Josephus, a large part of that is considered to be unauthentic.

Bertha: Persecution! Persecution!


FACT #3: LARGE STONE MOVED
Same thing. Depending on the Bible to prove it. It also asks a question to try cover up that fact.

Since Gertrude is in jail for persecution and Harry is in Hell burning. We'll have to channel some other people in:

Nubile: The stone never rolled away.
Milf: Yes it did. It was too big to move. How did they move it to the top of the hill and around the guards if it didn't move with the power of Jesus Christ Almighty!?

Nubile: Says who?
Milf: The Bible.

Nubile: Who else?
Milf: My preacher.

Nubile. You're stupid.
Milf: Yeah, but I have a whole category dedicated to me at XHamster.

Nubile: So do I.


FACT #4: ROMAN GUARD GOES AWOL
Based on the Bible for evidence. Once again. And it uses an authority on Roman Military Discipline to strengthen the argument.

Since Nubile and Milf are making love and being watched by Gay Hating Christian Men - we turn you to our latest group of demonstrators:

Bert: Hey Ernie
Ernie: Hey Bert

Bert: You know, I think Jesus was never resurrected.
Ernie. Gee Bert. Why would you think that? Did you forget that all the soldiers went AWOL? They would have been tortured and all of this really bad stuff would have happened. In fact, Cookie Monster said that fear of punishment "produced flawless attention to duty, especially in the night watches."

Bert: Ernie. We're lovers aren't we?
Ernie. Sure Bert.

Bert: What would or would not have happened to the soldiers is irrelevant. What we do know is that there is no secular proof that Jesus was crucified or resurrected. And just because Cookie Monster is an expert on Roman Military Discipline, that doesn't make him an expert on what may or may not have happened in reality based off of evidence in the Bible.
Ernie. I hate you. I'm moving to Oklahoma and I'm going to find a great podcast to listen to.

Bert: See ya...

Six months later....

Ernie: Hey Bert. Sorry to call you so late. Listen, you ever heard of the Thinking Atheist? I'm no longer a Christian!
Bert: What? Really! I just converted to Christianity by listening to Pat Robertson!



FACT #5: GRAVECLOTHES TELL A TALE
Sadly, I can't create a conversation for this one. It is a retread of the others. Proof based on the Bible with no secular proof in history. It means nothing.

FACT #6: JESUS' APPEARANCES CONFIRMED

Part I : OVER 500 WITNESSES
500 witnesses according to the Bible. Seeing a pattern here?
It also says that because St. Paul mentioned this - it must be true. Quote: "If you don't believe me, just ask them".

We take you to this e-mail:

Hello friends. I normally don't send these type of e-mails, but I had no choice this time. As all of you know, I am a Christian man just trying to raise a family and do what I can. Yesterday, I heard from a friend of mine that his daughter turned into a bat. She was last seen flying over Chicago.

If you know anyone in Chicago let them know about this. She is biting people and they turn into rabid Bernie Sanders supporters. We need to act now before it is too late. God gave us all a right to liberty and the Constitution is proof of this. Don't let our children get bitten by bat girl. Jesus save us all. And for those of you that don't believe me then just ask my friend. He'll prove to you Bat Girl is real. You can also ask the 500 people who have already fallen prey to her.

~John Smoogabuga

(What is sad is that would probably actually get circulated around the internet...)

Hostile Witness
This is nonsense. It is still depending on the Bible for proof. Not outside proof. It also mentions a logical fallacy that people use in their argument. The simple fact is this: The whole thing is dependent on the Bible with no outside proof whatsoever. Regardless of whether or not there were hostile witnesses.


Alternative Theories Presented: The Wrong Tomb thru The Body Stolen
First off - these theories only apply if we are to take the historicity of Jesus seriously. That is to say that we don't care about secular proof or external proof and we are perfectly content with the idea that Jesus was crucified and something actually happened to the body.

Let us assume that Jesus was real and he was crucified for the sake of argument.

None of the counter-arguments matter. The author makes the assumption that the very story of Jesus could have been killed then and there had any of these been true. If that were a dependable fact then it would also be true that voters in the U.S. would vote based on what their political leaders consistently vote for rather than things such as appearance, personality, and emotional persuasions.

In other words, people don't very often use truth and fact as a weight when deciding to believe something. People believe in UFOs, lizard people, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Magnetic Healing, Astrology, and so forth. It is nonsense to think that if Jesus' body was stolen - nobody in nearby regions would have believed it.

Also, consider that the history of Christianity has no written documentation for a long period. This is true up until decades after his supposed death. As far as I am certain, the story of Jesus stops with his death and isn't picked up again until many decades later by new followers. E.g. Paul - a person that never actually met Jesus nor was there when he was crucified.

I think it is fair to assume that any of the scenarios could have happened and Christianity spread in other regions later on.

REAL PROOF: THE DISCIPLES' LIVES

This says, the disciples suffered and kept preaching so it must be true.
The same is true of Muslim's. The same is true of Jews. The same is true of many faiths. So what?


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27-03-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
Praise Thor indeed. Smile

That was bloody funny. Big Grin

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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27-03-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(27-03-2016 12:45 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Josh McDowell is a charlatan. I would look up refutations to "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" as his arguments have already been thoroughly debunked.


Edit: in light of what Moms said, PM Aliza. She is a Jew and can give you a detailed explanation. You can also search her posts as she has given many great responses.

Awww shucks. Blush

Sally, if you need help refuting any so-called "messianic prophecies" please do not hesitate to send me a PM or post questions up on the forum.

The concept of the messiah is a Jewish idea, not a Christian one. It was the Jews who defined what the messiah's role is, and who the messiah could be. Aside from being Jewish, Jesus didn't fulfill a single requirement. Prophecies that Christians come up with to "validate" Jesus are mistranslated, taken out of context or fabricated all together.

The NT descriptions of Jesus do not match the Jewish definition of the messiah and it is for that reason that the Jews rejected him.
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27-03-2016, 07:42 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(27-03-2016 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 12:45 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Josh McDowell is a charlatan. I would look up refutations to "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" as his arguments have already been thoroughly debunked.


Edit: in light of what Moms said, PM Aliza. She is a Jew and can give you a detailed explanation. You can also search her posts as she has given many great responses.

Awww shucks. Blush

Sally, if you need help refuting any so-called "messianic prophecies" please do not hesitate to send me a PM or post questions up on the forum.

The concept of the messiah is a Jewish idea, not a Christian one. It was the Jews who defined what the messiah's role is, and who the messiah could be. Aside from being Jewish, Jesus didn't fulfill a single requirement. Prophecies that Christians come up with to "validate" Jesus are mistranslated, taken out of context or fabricated all together.

The NT descriptions of Jesus do not match the Jewish definition of the messiah and it is for that reason that the Jews rejected him.

it was always funny to me how the jews were the ones God spoke to in the ot.. but when you get to the nt jesus shows up and the jews dont like him so hes all "whatever ill go to the gentiles"
and the whole point of the christian tribulation is to get the jews to convert
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27-03-2016, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 09:45 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
Until very late in the Apocalyptic period of Judaism, the role of a prophet was not seen as one who "predicts the future". Almost all of Fundamentalist Christianity, (and a lot of main-stream Christianity also) rests on that rather obvious fallacy/error/misunderstanding.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

So I had occasion to hear the Passion from John's Gospel this past week.
I think you can "tune" your ear to "hear" things that just don't "make sense", when hearing this stuff (*scripture*). First there is no institution of the Eucharist in John. Many long speeches, (which make no sense at all in that context, obviously just "placed in his mouth", all with very highly developed themes, that make no sense at the time). That's pretty odd. Then during the passion there's this weird "dance" to be sure the "blame" was laid in the Jews for the death sentence, and the Romans exonerated. If (as Mark Fulton says, Christianity was invented by Rome) one would expect that. The "We have no king but Caesar" from the Jewish priests, is preposterous.

The stuff "placed" in Peter's mouth (in Acts 2:2 on Pentecost) is simply impossible. First of all, somehow "suddenly" he's (a fisherman from Galilee), turned into an orator ? I think not. Then within a few weeks, he's got it all *figured out* with references to the OT and Jewish history ? Ahhhh. No. The theology is highly developed, and worked out. That would have taken many many decades. This from someone who supposedly just a few weeks earlier had asked Jesus "Lord wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel", (as to what the role of Jesus as messiah was). Somehow ALL that got morphed into a highly organized, developed *salvation* from sins theology, in two months ? Nope. Impossible.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-03-2016, 09:02 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(27-03-2016 08:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think you can "tune" your ear to "hear" things that just don't "make sense", when hearing this stuff (*scripture*). First there is no institution of the Eucharist in John. Many long speeches, (which make no sense at all in that context, obviously just "placed in his mouth", all with very highly developed themes, that make no sense at the time). That's pretty odd. Then during the passion there's this weird "dance" to be sure the "blame" was laid in the Jews for the death sentence, and the Romans exonerated. If (as Mark Fulton says, Christianity was invented by Rome) one would expect that. The "We have no king but Caesar" from the Jewish priests, is preposterous.

Lies Bucky. All lies. You just don't understand that it makes no sense at the time because that was Jesus speaking to us in the modern English speaking world. Just don't read what those other morons, Matt, Mark, and Luke had to say. John's is the True Jesus™. You're just taking it out of context.

(27-03-2016 08:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The stuff "placed" in Peter's mouth (in Acts 2:2 on Pentecost) is simply impossible.

I wonder if Paul placed the stuff. Consider

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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27-03-2016, 09:14 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(26-03-2016 10:52 PM)SallyBr0wn Wrote:  I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but my husband is a strong born again Christian still. He's highly intelligent and it is difficult to go head to head with him because he's well read and I've only been an atheist for less than a year.

He posted this article and I was hoping some could help me on this. I know it's a lot to ask, but I need any help that I can get. I'm also going to look things up. I just listened to this video and I thought it was good and made sense. https://youtu.be/H7OJW9lxVO4

But I also see why the article makes sense to believers.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/east...josh2.html

Thank you!!!

Hi Sally. The article that you linked above is neatly self-defeating. It claims a whole lot of witnesses for miraculous evets that very strangely never get mentioned outside of the Bible. The skies go dark, the earth quakes, the dead rise from their graves and walk again. Jesus wanders out of his tomb and resumes preaching. The ressurrection alone is witnessed by hundreds. The other supernatural effects by untold thousands.

Yet the Romans, who were superstitious in the extreme, didn't even bother to pen a memo about it. We're talking about a bunch whose Senate wouldn't sit if the auspices and augurs were unfavourable.

Either they're got a whole lot of witnesses, a load of miracles and a lot of different historical accounts or they have a narrative that only shows up in the Bible because it never really happened.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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27-03-2016, 09:21 PM
RE: Proof of the Resurrection
(27-03-2016 09:02 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I wonder if Paul placed the stuff. Consider

Some think that would explain his self-loathing, neurotic personality.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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