Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-02-2014, 09:12 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 01:37 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 09:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  We know what he said. We don't if what he said is actually true.

Your one sided skepticism is very telling. You are skeptical of information that comes from any source other than your own church, especially something from "another preacher".
My atheist father taught me to be skeptical. Once you hear something(like philosophy of men) the first thing you have to do is to be skeptical.
For example I am very skeptical of your reason why you left Church and that you are an honest person. Why? I know that some things you wrote on this forum were not true. I don't know if you are lying or just ignorant. I think most likely the first.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(12-02-2014 09:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 07:07 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  We know it because he said it.
We know what he said. We don't if what he said is actually true.

Get off the computer and apply this to the Book of Mormon. Weeping

You are skeptical of a guy giving his personal reasons for changing his mind, something that people do all the time and that we have plenty of evidence for. That's what thinking, rational, adults do; they evaluate their beliefs and sometimes change their minds when presented with contrary evidence.

Compare that to your uncritical acceptance that an angel visited Joseph Smith (no evidence for angels), and totally gave him the tools needed to translate some Golden Plates (no evidence the plates actually existed) which contained a divine revelation (just one among thousands of other such claims to divine authority), but no! That shit totally happened! And it really is the word of God! Because somebody told me it is!

Skeptical my ass, you don't have the first fucking clue how to be skeptical, because you apply it subjectively. For fuck's sake Alla, go get yourself one of these...

[Image: Crowbar_world_model_ep2.jpg]

Then please use it to pry your head out of your ass.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are skeptical of a guy giving his personal reasons for changing his mind, something that people do all the time and that we have plenty of evidence for. That's what thinking, rational, adults do; they evaluate their beliefs and sometimes change their minds when presented with contrary evidence.
I don't argue with that. I only said that he is another preacher and I can be skeptical. I was skeptical of LDS Doctrine when it was presented to me.


(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Compare that to your uncritical acceptance that an angel visited Joseph Smith (no evidence for angels), and totally gave him the tools needed to translate some Golden Plates (no evidence the plates actually existed) which contained a divine revelation (just one among thousands of other such claims to divine authority), but no! That shit totally happened! And it really is the word of God! Because somebody told me it is!
I was skeptical of Smith's testimony. But when I received PERSONAL revelation from God I was not skeptical any more.

(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Skeptical my ass, you don't have the first fucking clue how to be skeptical, because you apply it subjectively. For fuck's sake Alla, go get yourself one of these...
you believe this preacher. Fine.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 10:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are skeptical of a guy giving his personal reasons for changing his mind, something that people do all the time and that we have plenty of evidence for. That's what thinking, rational, adults do; they evaluate their beliefs and sometimes change their minds when presented with contrary evidence.
I don't argue with that. I only said that he is another preacher and I can be skeptical. I was skeptical of LDS Doctrine when it was presented to me.


(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Compare that to your uncritical acceptance that an angel visited Joseph Smith (no evidence for angels), and totally gave him the tools needed to translate some Golden Plates (no evidence the plates actually existed) which contained a divine revelation (just one among thousands of other such claims to divine authority), but no! That shit totally happened! And it really is the word of God! Because somebody told me it is!
I was skeptical of Smith's testimony. But when I received PERSONAL revelation from God I was not skeptical any more.

(13-02-2014 10:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Skeptical my ass, you don't have the first fucking clue how to be skeptical, because you apply it subjectively. For fuck's sake Alla, go get yourself one of these...
you believe this preacher. Fine.

God gave you personal revelation that Joseph Smith's story was true? What about Christians who claim that they've had divine revelations?

Truth seeker.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 11:06 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  I don't argue with that. I only said that he is another preacher and I can be skeptical. I was skeptical of LDS Doctrine when it was presented to me.


I was skeptical of Smith's testimony. But when I received PERSONAL revelation from God I was not skeptical any more.

you believe this preacher. Fine.

God gave you personal revelation that Joseph Smith's story was true? What about Christians who claim that they've had divine revelations?
It is possible that they have revelations from God. God speaks to His children.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 11:54 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 11:06 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  God gave you personal revelation that Joseph Smith's story was true? What about Christians who claim that they've had divine revelations?
It is possible that they have revelations from God. God speaks to His children.

So why are they Christian and not Mormon? Does God want people to fight and disagree with eachother?

Truth seeker.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 01:32 PM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 10:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  I was skeptical of Smith's testimony. But when I received PERSONAL revelation from God I was not skeptical any more.

If this were a real revelation, why did god wait until after you had already been significantly exposed to LDS doctrine? Why doesn't god give the rest of us this revelation? What's so special about you, that you were picked, but I wasn't?

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 09:07 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 07:48 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Are you saying he's a liar?
No, I don't say this. But can I suspect him in doing this?


(13-02-2014 07:48 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Because you have to for what he said to be false. What he said was a statement of intent. He stated that he started learning more as a Christian and as he learned, it made less sense. So, the only thing we have to go on is him telling us what his intentions are. And for that to be wrong, you have to accuse him of lying. On what are you basing that?
I don't know his intentions. I can read his words but I can not read his mind and his heart.
To me he is another preacher. There are plenty of them.

Why do you suspect him of lying? Because it hurts your world view that someone who seeks God wouldn't find him? That's exactly what happened to me. Do you "suspect" me to be lying?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 09:12 AM)Alla Wrote:  My atheist father taught me to be skeptical.

Well, that turned out well.

Quote:Once you hear something(like philosophy of men) the first thing you have to do is to be skeptical.

What knowledge do you have to determine which "philosophies" are from god, and which are from men? What is the difference?

My argument is that religion is just such a "philosophy of men". There is no divine, merely many different people claiming conflicting things who want the common person to believe that god is on their side.

Quote:For example I am very skeptical of your reason why you left Church and that you are an honest person.

That seems reasonable.

While we are at it, you seem far from honorable yourself. Talking to you is like sparring with a snake in the tall grass. At one moment you pretend to be meek and accepting of others, then you strike out in vicious mocking tones. You can't seem to decide whether or not you intend to be decent.

Quote:Why? I know that some things you wrote on this forum were not true. I don't know if you are lying or just ignorant. I think most likely the first.

Since we are saying what we know, or what is proven, I am absolutely certain that the Mormon church is a fraud. If I were not certain, I would still be a member.

Since we are being so skeptical about each other, I find your very presence here deeply suspicious. Within the church, everyone knows not to do what you are doing. You say you have come here to learn truth. I do not believe that is your motivation. If it were, why are you not satisfied with the revealed truth of the Mormon gospel? If it were, why do you so actively argue against what wisdom Atheists here have to offer? You are lying to us about your motivations.

Obviously you are motivated to discredit me personally, along with anyone who denies your gospel. You are motivated to argue against unbelievers in general. You are not seeking truth or peace. You are interesting in combat. Perhaps you come here looking to dissuade Atheists from their position, or to test the strength of your own faith. Perhaps you merely entertain yourself with the exhilaration of an argument.

Given the choice between ignorance and deception, I consider you guilty of the former. You can't even make your real position consistent, let alone construct a complicated deception.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dark Phoenix's post
13-02-2014, 09:39 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 10:09 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Proof that Evidence and Reason can change minds.
(13-02-2014 11:54 AM)Alla Wrote:  It is possible that they have revelations from God. God speaks to His children.

It is unfortunate that he doesn't seem to tell them all the same thing. If he did, we wouldn't have openly conflicting monotheistic religions like Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

In his book "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything" Christopher Hitchens says it best of all.

Quote:Since all of these revelations, many of them hopelessly inconsistent, cannot by definition be simultaneously true, it must follow that some of them are false and illusory. It could also follow that only one of them is authentic, but in the first place
this seems dubious and in the second place it appears to necessitate religious war in order to decide whose revelation is the true one. A further difficulty is the apparent tendency of the Almighty to reveal himself only to unlettered and quasi-historical individuals, in regions of Middle Eastern wasteland that were long the home of idol worship and superstition, and in many instances already littered with existing prophecies.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dark Phoenix's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: