Proposal for a new social contract
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26-08-2011, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2011 02:33 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
(26-08-2011 01:24 PM)The_observer Wrote:  How can you assure the quality the government delivers in his services.
Take health care, for example, you cannot force someone to be a good doctor. you can't just make everyone a nurse. How will you motivate people?

You don't need to motivate people. People are already plenty motivated - only a whole lot of them (a majority, in fact) never get the opportunity to meet their potential. Think how many students with 90%+ average apply to medical school and are turned down because the class is full; how many more don't apply because they could never raise the tuition. Think how many more never finish high-school or learn to read. Think of the waste of talent!
This is one product of our economy. We create, and allow businesses and special interest groups (like the AMA) to create artificial scarcity. If doctors are not in short supply, they don't have to be run ragged during apprenticeship, nor treated like royalty if they survive it. (Cuba seems to manage okay, and even export a few). People won't be going into medicine for the wrong reason (personal gain), so we'll get a better, more caring, more relaxed type in the ER.

Quote:...Do I have to work for only 3 hours as well? If not, where's my incentive?

Yes, i think if there are enough medical personnel (and remember, we're dealing with a far healthier population, once nutrition, housing, safety and early childcare are no longer an issue) a few hours a day will suffice. You can spend the afternoon lifting private faces or designing even better prosthetic arms, or tending your roses.
Your incentive is, as it should be, bliss.

PS - cute poster - too short for prez
Do i sound like a big fan of this proposal? I can imagine it fixing so much that troubles me about our society.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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26-08-2011, 02:42 PM
 
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
One aspect of the system has not been mentioned. The 3 hours workday is only a minimum. Lots of people will work longer hours, out of choice, because they like their job, they like their environments and colleagues, they don't want to stop when the time is up because they are waiting to finish a phase they are involved in.

A system, intelligently organized, could accommodate for differences between individuals, we don't need to live in a military-style regimented society. If only people learned to live and let live, life would be a lot easier.
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27-08-2011, 12:07 AM
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
Sorry for the late entry. All my time at work makes long posts hard to tackle. I like your proposal though I always worry about the use of private sectors. A large issue in fact is the fact that in a recovering former monetary based society those who succeed in the private sector can easily gain very real power. What can a government highly focused on sustainability do to dissipate the small armies held by those who seek power and use luxury to gain it?

Unfortunately as a model added towards the current western society I think it might kill itself. Allowing the private sector too many freedoms would deal a hefty blow to the chances of the system.

Here's a good video about how motivation works and why money is not much of a factor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

I am not against your proposal in many ways, just rather suspicious of the private sector factor. I understand that it's for transition, but the transitional period is the scary time.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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27-08-2011, 12:43 AM
 
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
(27-08-2011 12:07 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I am not against your proposal in many ways, just rather suspicious of the private sector factor. I understand that it's for transition, but the transitional period is the scary time.

I agree completely. As I said in Post #4: "If, by some miracle, we woke up tomorrow with this system already in place, I believe it would be practical, for a long time, before ingenious ways of corrupting it could be found. As far as how to get there, I doubt that it is possible in the foreseeable future."

One thing you can always trust human beings for is ingenuity in destruction.
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27-08-2011, 02:22 AM
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
Sounds reasonable...
Don't get me wrong, I'm kind of a fan of this system. But asking questions is just mu nature. Tongue

How about the other end of the labor spectrum.
How will we find people willing to unclog wastewater plumbing or work in cold rain or hard sun to lay road and railroads? Although not as much as a doctor, this things do require skill to a certain level. How will you motivate them?

An other thing? Doesn't the strong government in this model require strong leadership?

How about the flowing scenario.
There is a certain need for vacation. This is clearly the job for the private sector i suppose. (is it?). The vacation busyness clearly require resources provided bu the government. (land for a hotel, food, a mountain to ski from, transportation). How will the private sector interact with the government? I f I'm getting it right, they don't accept money?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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27-08-2011, 06:49 AM
 
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
(27-08-2011 02:22 AM)The_observer Wrote:  How about the other end of the labor spectrum.
How will we find people willing to unclog wastewater plumbing or work in cold rain or hard sun to lay road and railroads? Although not as much as a doctor, this things do require skill to a certain level. How will you motivate them?

For intelligent, middle class, highly educated citizens it is hard to imagine that there are people with very limited skill-potential, at the low end of the Bell curve. It is not a put-down of people with lesser abilities, just a description of reality. These people, who find it hard to learn more complex skills, still want to have their place in society, they still want to be appreciated and not looked down on as parasites. They still enjoy the company of their own social strata and will seek out opportunities to contribute. By statistical distribution, chance and accident, all the lower skill-level jobs will find people wanting to do them. They can do them well or badly and they will know which of the two they are. They still can feel pride in a task well performed and recognized by their peers. As technology improves and resources get liberated, most of the unpleasant jobs will be either automated to some degree or, at the least, made as unpleasant as possible by providing helpful tools.

Quote:An other thing? Doesn't the strong government in this model require strong leadership?

Strong in what sense? Intelligent, for sure. Imaginative, creative, flexible, dynamic, absolutely.

Quote:There is a certain need for vacation. This is clearly the job for the private sector i suppose. (is it?).

People can spend their vacation in many different ways. I spent almost all my vacations at home, doing renovation on my old house (I am building a greenhouse right now). I don’t like traveling and like to stay away from crowds but I just love building and construction. Others may go canoeing, camping, hiking. Not all vacations require luxury hotels and ski slopes. The government provides the time off for the vacation for every citizen. They decide how to use it. Luxury hotels and ski areas are definitely private sector offerings.

Quote:The vacation busyness clearly require resources provided by the government. (land for a hotel, food, a mountain to ski from, transportation). How will the private sector interact with the government? I f I'm getting it right, they don't accept money?

Yes, the government doesn’t use money of any kind. The private company can lease land from the government as I explained it above in Post #16. They can negotiate with the government a contract on the conditions of the lease. It can be done many ways without money. They can offer free labour to the public sector, they can make 3-way deals with other private sector companies and the government. It can all be worked out by intelligent, reasonable people. They will have to procure food and equipment from other private sector companies and pay for them in the currency established in that sector.
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27-08-2011, 08:27 AM
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
(27-08-2011 12:07 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  ..... A large issue in fact is the fact that in a recovering former monetary based society those who succeed in the private sector can easily gain very real power. What can a government highly focused on sustainability do to dissipate the small armies held by those who seek power and use luxury to gain it?

That's a tough one. I thought i would get involved only in the social organization aspects (which is what most interest me) but enforcement does sort of come in there.
I kind of see this transition as a first-aid program in the wake of economic collapse - and there's no doubt in my mind that's imminent. So the ForcesOfEvil will be in disarray, in shock from the sudden devaluation of currency, nationalization of their holdings in the far and middle east, closing of tax shelter banks, bottomless stock market, etc. Like the aftermath of a lost war. For some time, they'll be scrambling to save a remnants of their personal assets and hiding from enraged mobs of unemployed. They won't be in any position, for some time, to offer blandishments or muster armies.

Without the old model financial system, supported by government, the present top dogs will find their skill-set obsolete. A whole new generation of entrepreneurs will have to start from scratch, negotiating for land (no grant of somebody else's hunting ground from a king on the other side of the ocean) licenses (no lobbyists or tame senators) building material (real wood and stone, not a purchase order signed in a remote tower) and workers (who have a choice; no coolies, no indentured servants, no transported prisoners).

Even so, eventually, they would consolidate. They would figure out cons and short-cuts, seduce dishonest citizens, gain leverage.
But they could never get the kind of power, working against the government that they have owning the government. The rich guys were relatively harmless while they had to pay hefty taxes, obey strict regulations and deal with strong unions. It's having governments in their pocket that brought them to world domination.
That, and our pathetic dependence on, utter faith in, total gagahood over, money.

Quote: Unfortunately as a model added towards the current western society I think it might kill itself. Allowing the private sector too many freedoms would deal a hefty blow to the chances of the system.

I see the danger, but there is an equal, or greater, danger in government that's too restrictive and punitive. Trying to hold everyone and everything under tight control, you tip over into dictatorship. You waste too much energy and manpower on enforcement and lose the respect of too many citizens. Balance will be of the essence. And common sense. I know... but it is out there, if we just let people exercise it.
Two safeguards i would build in: a dynamic participatory democracy, and an absolute ban on privately-owned firearms.

Quote: I understand that it's for transition, but the transitional period is the scary time.

Way more than scary, the collapse will be a huge, hairy mess. But that's going to happen anyway, and something else will have to grow in its place. Why not imagine something good?

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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27-08-2011, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2011 08:35 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
Not all societies view the most integral framework, jobs such as cleaning and gophering, as less important. While not highly technical skills these jobs impact others at an extremely high level. Their day to day lives are effected by these "low end" jobs. In a society where people can focus more on their desire to make a difference in the lives of others it is quite likely that these jobs will be given more credit. The person who cleans the toilets often prevents more diseases than the doctor who does yearly checkups.

As far as how a hotel might pay for its resource consumption. It is possible that private sector proposals can be made on the fulfillment of emotional needs. Perhaps at times a group can offer the government a proposal which will benefit people in their more societal needs rather than labor services. Obviously this would be a limited proposal which would be given the stipulation that if it doesn't work they will need to make up for the "work" they are borrowing. The great thing about this sort of system is, that the same luxuries you see now will be at a much lower cost because the expenses of maintaining them will lower dramatically. Making activities pretty much accessible to all who want them.
Peterkin it's not that I'm failing to imagine something good, I'm simply looking for the holes because this is the time to make the idea as fully functional as possible in case it actually could be accepted when it is truly proposed.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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27-08-2011, 08:57 AM
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
Yay!
Plugging the holes is fun. I like to make up imaginary structures. And a more complete blueprint is probably easier to sell. The hardest sell, though, aren't those who don't see it all, but those who don't want to give up privileges.

Well, there would be no shortage of people with good ideas. Volunteers, even - bright people who have never been listened-to. No shortage of teachers, either, in every area of knowledge and skill. There is almost nothing humans like better than showing off what they're good at.

On the hotel thing -
What if the private hotel offered a small percentage of its capacity, each season, or a larger percent in the off-season, to public sector workers who are recuperating from injury or illness and need a little pampering?

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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27-08-2011, 10:13 AM
 
RE: Proposal for a new social contract
(27-08-2011 08:27 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Two safeguards i would build in: a dynamic participatory democracy, and an absolute ban on privately-owned firearms.

I would go one step further: I would ban the manufacture of all firearms and ammunition. Horrible waste of resources and manpower to create machines with one and only one use: kill and maim. It is one of the most insane aspects of human culture.

We live in a culture where the brightest, often genius-caliber, graduates of Mathematics and Physics are snapped up by the Pentagon (those that Wall Street did not get to first) and put to work to design more and more ingenious weapons to kill and destroy.

In a sane society these scientists would discover newer and newer ways to make life easier for everybody and save the Planet from our most destructive practices.

If the system I am proposing gets implemented, then violent crime rate (like armed robbery) will plummet and even the police will not need to be armed.

If there is no ammunition manufactured and anything that can be found is destroyed, even the hardened criminals will run out of their reserves sooner or later.

Eliminate money from the public sector and most of the public will be safe from violent crime.
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