Protesters take to the streets
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13-11-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(12-11-2016 04:00 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 08:17 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I think age is a big factor here. Lessons are slowly forgotten as they pass out of living memory. So you get intergenerational cycles as lessons are forgotten and then sharply remembered again.

I read a good article just now that makes the same point that I have.

History Tells Us What Will Happen Next With Brexit And Trump


Quote:My theory is that most peoples’ perspective of history is limited to the experience communicated by their parents and grandparents, so 50-100 years. To go beyond that you have to read, study and learn to untangle the propaganda that is inevitable in all telling of history.


Quote:During the Centenary of the Battle of the Somme I was struck that it was a direct outcome of the assassination of an Austrian Arch Duke in Bosnia. I very much doubt anyone at the time thought the killing of a minor European royal would lead to the death of 17 million people.

My point is that this is a cycle. It happens again and again, but as most people only have a 50-100 year historical perspective they don’t see that it’s happening again. As the events that led to the First World War unfolded, there were a few brilliant minds who started to warn that something big was wrong, that the web of treaties across Europe could lead to a war, but they were dismissed as hysterical, mad, or fools, as is always the way, and as people who worry about Putin, Brexit and Trump are dismissed now.

If you're 40 or over think about how much life has changed already. When I was a child I lived in a world where America and the Soviet Union were in a cold war and a wall was built right across Europe stopping people from leaving the east. I couldn't imagine the end of the Soviet Union. But I am sure most young people couldn't imagine such a wall being erected now.

I lived in a world without people owning computers except for hobbyists, and no one even having heard of the internet. There were three, then four and eventually five television channels and we spent the evening watching crap light entertainment on BBC1 and ITV. People all got their news from the news on these two channels and a newspaper. Yet now children have humanity's knowledge at their finger tips.

My parents were lived in a historically long period of peace and prosperity, yet they knew poverty in their early post war years far beyond anything we experience today. Yet they lived with the imminent threat of nuclear destruction throughout that period, which very nearly happened on multiple occasions.

From your cited article:

"The people who see that open societies, being nice to other people, not being racist, not fighting wars, is a better way to live, they generally end up losing these fights. They don’t fight dirty. They are terrible at appealing to the populace. They are less violent, so end up in prisons, camps, and graves.” Confused

This^

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-11-2016, 07:48 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 07:33 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 07:17 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Of course there are no death camps. He's not even president yet.

The thing is, neither you nor anyone else actually knows what is coming. That's the problem. We don't know whether or not these things will happen. No one can say.

What we do know though is that Trump is a demagogue. If America voted in someone that would bring about death camps and big brother making people disappear then it would be because people voted someone like Trump and the current Republican party without any checks and balances.

There is every reason to be worried. And these things are more likely to happen if people aren't vigilant.

I can say confidently that there will be no deathcamps in America regardless of who is President for the foreseeable future. There are plenty of checks and balances in place. Don't be an alarmist.

It was the first experience of german people with democracy. Germany was full of people who were fed up with democracy itself by 1930. The USA has no other experience than democracy, there isnt a major part of them being fed up wth the democratic system itself.

That doesnt make Trump less of a dangerous demagogue with a probable psychological defect. That doesnt make it frightening how he could actually appeal to the masses with his racist, misogynist, inhumane slogans. This is more telling about the education of the voters than trump himself actually.

People have to stay alert to avoid the worst. Additionally you people have 20/20 hindsight unlike 1920s Germans.

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13-11-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
I think we’re overreacting, let’s try and remember the good in people and that soon Christmas will be here.

[Image: 817feb381c53bb68a69fbca2c4f8c008.jpg]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-11-2016, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2016 12:03 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 07:48 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 07:33 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I can say confidently that there will be no deathcamps in America regardless of who is President for the foreseeable future. There are plenty of checks and balances in place. Don't be an alarmist.

It was the first experience of german people with democracy. Germany was full of people who were fed up with democracy itself by 1930. The USA has no other experience than democracy, there isnt a major part of them being fed up wth the democratic system itself.

That doesnt make Trump less of a dangerous demagogue with a probable psychological defect. That doesnt make it frightening how he could actually appeal to the masses with his racist, misogynist, inhumane slogans. This is more telling about the education of the voters than trump himself actually.

People have to stay alert to avoid the worst. Additionally you people have 20/20 hindsight unlike 1920s Germans.

The masses of Americans are not racist, or misogynists. There are very few people who are. After all, half the country just voted for a women, and the majority of Americans just elected a black president twice. Many of whom voted for Trump. Part of the reason why Trump won the presidency is because "progressive" political correctness kept telling average normal and tolerant people that they are ignorant, toothless, racist, inbred, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, garbage. This isn't 1920's Germany, and to pretend as if it were is of offense to those affected by the Third Reich, as well as half of the population who aren't any of the demonstrable things the PC police think they are. This is not to say that those people don't exist, as they've latched on to it as well. There is a minority of fearful hardline religious folk who do hold some of those ideas, but it really is a small minority - and it exists on both sides.

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13-11-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 08:22 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I think we’re overreacting, let’s try and remember the good in people and that soon Christmas will be here.

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13-11-2016, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2016 11:05 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 08:55 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The masses of Americans are not racist, or misogynists. There are very few people who are. After all, half the country just voted for a women, and the majority of Americans just elected a black president twice.

And more than the majority either voted for Trump or did not vote and allowed him to get in. Trump ran on a campaign of bigotry.

So yes, there are masses of Americans who are racists and misogynists.


(13-11-2016 08:55 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Part of the reason why Trump won the presidency is because "progressive" political correctness kept telling average normal and tolerant people that they are ignorant, toothless, racist, inbred, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, garbage.

People say that but it doesn't make sense. It's a way of putting blame on the progressives. History shows us that people don't vote for the right wing demagogues because they don't like being told that they are prejudiced. They do it because the demagogues appeal to the disenfranchised who have nothing left to lose but to destroy the status quo on the off-chance that some of the promises come true. They never do. The demagogue always makes a scapegoat of some vulnerable minority and appeals to exceptionalism.


(13-11-2016 08:55 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  This isn't 1920's Germany, and to pretend as if it were is of offense to those affected by the Third Reich,

What makes you think that it's 1920's Germany or nothing? History is littered with demagogues. Mussolini and Franco for example were the two other successful ones in recent European history. Every country had it's fascists movements, most of which were not successful. But here's the thing. They all used the same techniques to get power. And these are the exact same techniques that Trump has used. Every single one of them.

Hitler's Germany was just the worst example of a demagogue seizing power so to only make a comparison with this is an appeal to the extreme.

You say that America won't have death camps but assume it will be this or nothing. It's always an extension of what a country already has in place. Death camps never start off as death camps otherwise they would be called 'death camps' and not 'concentration camps'. They start off as internment camps, a way to concentrate all undesirables in society in one place.

America already has Guatanamo Bay where inmates are detained indefinitely without trial and tortured. The Republicans are now proposing a new House of Un-American activities.
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13-11-2016, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2016 10:30 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 08:55 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 07:48 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  It was the first experience of german people with democracy. Germany was full of people who were fed up with democracy itself by 1930. The USA has no other experience than democracy, there isnt a major part of them being fed up wth the democratic system itself.

That doesnt make Trump less of a dangerous demagogue with a probable psychological defect. That doesnt make it frightening how he could actually appeal to the masses with his racist, misogynist, inhumane slogans. This is more telling about the education of the voters than trump himself actually.

People have to stay alert to avoid the worst. Additionally you people have 20/20 hindsight unlike 1920s Germans.

Part of the reason why Trump won the presidency is because "progressive" political correctness kept telling average normal and tolerant people that they are ignorant, toothless, racist, inbred, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, garbage.

(Partially) responsible for Trumps election are the people who actually did not vote for him? Will you keep this claim up in case Trumps presidency is going to be awesome and will make America great again? Or only in case he will fail?
Responsible for whats going to happen are the people who voted for him, full.stop. We are assuming to have informed citizens who are responsible for what they do and whom they vote for. If people feel the need to dish out some backlash because they feel butthurt by whomever.....then they still are responsible for their actions.
While i didnt think (and never claimed) that a majority of americans are "ignorant, toothless, racist, inbred, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, garbage", they voted for someone who run his campaing by advertising torture, killing of innocent people, imprisoning his political opponents, etc.. They voted for someone who has openly portrayed himself a as a misogynistic sexual predator and racist.

So either they voted for him because they thought he was honest about what he portrayed himself as and for what he advocated. In this case they supported torture, killing of innocent people, imprisonment of political opponents and misogyny.

Or they voted in spite of Trump being and advocating all this. Maybe they didnt really believe he would make every one of his threats come true, or maybe they had other priorites (aka. more money in their bags as promised).
Now if he is not really going to try and make all his threats true. What kind of person runs a presidential campaign by dishonestly advertising all these horrible things, and what kind of voter supports a liar who did so?
In case they priorize their taxes and money to other peoples civil rights and human rights, well...they are still responsible for whats going to happen, like all the voters of Adolf who thought "how bad can it be, just a few jews who are gonna pay for Germany becoming great again and for the solution of the huge unemployment problem?". The social democrats werent responsbile for so many people voting for Adolf, just because they werent able to get a stable majority or coalition with other parties and thus the people becoming fed off with democracy. The people who voted for Adolf and either believed what he said or went with him anyway, those groups were responsible (like the conservatives who foolishely appointed him at the end trying to control him), but certainly not the people who did not vote for him.

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13-11-2016, 10:41 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
I think the electoral college should be disbanded after this election if the electors vote Trump in as president. It will be an indictment on how toothless the system is. If the electors are simply going to rubber-stamp the popular vote then what the fuck are they there for?

Remove the electoral college and we would have gotten Clinton as president by approximately 2.5 million votes.

Hillary Clinton set to receive more votes than any US presidential candidate in history except Barack Obama
Democrat on course to trounce Donald Trump in popular vote despite losing election


“Nate Cohn, an election analyst at the New York Times, estimates that once all votes have been counted, 63.4 million Americans will have voted for Mrs Clinton and 61.2 million for Mr Trump, giving the Democrat a ‘winning’ margin of 1.5 per cent. "

"The nature of the electoral college has led some people to suggest Ms Clinton could still become president if electors vote against the instructions given to them by the electorate in their state.

There have been 157 of these so-called “faithless electors” throughout history but they have never overturned an election result and it is unlikely to happen this year.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...13596.html

Mark December 19th on your calendars, the day the electoral college becomes a vestigial remain of our founders vision for a true republic.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-11-2016, 10:41 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 08:22 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I think we’re overreacting, let’s try and remember the good in people and that soon Christmas will be here.

[Image: 817feb381c53bb68a69fbca2c4f8c008.jpg]

Christmas is great again.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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13-11-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
“In our country’s 240-year history, only 157 Electoral College members have ever bucked their party, and nearly half of them did it when the candidate they pledged to vote for died."
http://www.ajc.com/news/national/petitio...Jl80rdvUK/

Consider I think I see a solution (tongue-in-cheek).

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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