Protesters take to the streets
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14-11-2016, 03:20 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 11:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Everything that scares you is not Hitler incinerating Jews. I appreciate that some of you are genuinely fearful...but Trump isn't the leader of the 4th Reich.

Of course Trump is not the leader of 4th Reich. The 4th Reich is a concept first coined over 90 years ago in Germany. Trump and the Republican party are all American in the early 21st Century.

Yes, I know that you weren't being literal but this is my as well point. It isn't going to be the same, but that doesn't mean to say that there doesn't exist the strong possibility of a full blown neo-fascist government in America. Fascism does not equal national socialism. National socialism is a form of fascism. Fascism originally came from Mussolini. Regardless of the cultural shape it takes on, the techniques are the same. This is because they work.

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying that it can happen considering how Trump got elected and the historical trends that have led up to this point.

Yet you're saying for sure that it won't happen, that it will be all right. What exactly are you basing this on? Personal experience? If so then that's an argument from personal ignorance because you have not experienced anything else. Cycles repeat as lessons fall out of living memory. This is why we need to learn from history.
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14-11-2016, 03:36 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  What racist tries to put a colored person in the highest office in the land, if not the world, twice? Who?

You are making the assumption that only white people are racist. Come to the UK and you'll see that it's not true. We have a lot of different immigrants who don't get along with each other.

Assuming that only white people are racist is in itself a form of bigotry because it makes assumptions about people according to their skin colour rather than because of who they are. We're all human. We all have prejudices of some sort or another.


(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I didn't vote. Neither did my brother, nor my dad, nor any other friend of mine. Does that mean we are all racist and misoginistic? No it doesn't.

This sentiment is at odds with this one:

(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  The same one that says just because I tell an offensive joke with my friends, someone should be a buzzkill and tell people what to do.

You didn't vote. That means that you found Trump's message acceptable. Trump appealed to racism and misogyny.

If you objected to Trump's message then why didn't you vote against him?
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14-11-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 03:36 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  You are making the assumption that only white people are racist. Come to the UK and you'll see that it's not true. We have a lot of different immigrants who don't get along with each other.

Assuming that only white people are racist is in itself a form of bigotry because it makes assumptions about people according to their skin colour rather than because of who they are. We're all human. We all have prejudices of some sort or another.

First, I must give you credit, very little people think that more than just white people can be racist.

Second, my point still stands, because a lot of hispanics who voted trump also voted Obama. Same with Asians. And when it comes to blacks, many choose not to vote. Again assuming that they are all racist is what drove them to vote trump.



(14-11-2016 03:36 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I didn't vote. Neither did my brother, nor my dad, nor any other friend of mine. Does that mean we are all racist and misoginistic? No it doesn't.

This sentiment is at odds with this one:

(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  The same one that says just because I tell an offensive joke with my friends, someone should be a buzzkill and tell people what to do.

They aren't. Telling an offensive joke doesn't make you a bigot, just means you told a funny joke making funny of people. Just because I make jokes about whites and gay people, doesn't mean I hate either.

(13-11-2016 12:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  You didn't vote. That means that you found Trump's message acceptable. Trump appealed to racism and misogyny.

If you objected to Trump's message then why didn't you vote against him?

Lets assume that trump is racist and misogynistic. Not voting for him doesn't mean that I agree with him. Voting for him would mean that. Not voting for him means that I don't agree. Also like it or not, I hated hillary more. Trump serves more interest for me(ruining the LDP's plans [LDP is a political party in japan by the way and the only thing that I even found good about trump winning]) vs. Hillary who would have fucked everything up (starting WW3 with russia and enabling the LDP). And if trump says something that is wrong then I will criticize him. When I object to something, I usually point out why I disagree with it.

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14-11-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 03:20 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 11:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Everything that scares you is not Hitler incinerating Jews. I appreciate that some of you are genuinely fearful...but Trump isn't the leader of the 4th Reich.

Of course Trump is not the leader of 4th Reich. The 4th Reich is a concept first coined over 90 years ago in Germany. Trump and the Republican party are all American in the early 21st Century.

Yes, I know that you weren't being literal but this is my as well point. It isn't going to be the same, but that doesn't mean to say that there doesn't exist the strong possibility of a full blown neo-fascist government in America. Fascism does not equal national socialism. National socialism is a form of fascism. Fascism originally came from Mussolini. Regardless of the cultural shape it takes on, the techniques are the same. This is because they work.

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying that it can happen considering how Trump got elected and the historical trends that have led up to this point.

Yet you're saying for sure that it won't happen, that it will be all right. What exactly are you basing this on? Personal experience? If so then that's an argument from personal ignorance because you have not experienced anything else. Cycles repeat as lessons fall out of living memory. This is why we need to learn from history.

I am basing it on the constitutional protections, in part. Even you you say that that isn't worth the paper it's written on, and you ignore all other checks and balances we have, I know a ton of Trump supporters, he won heavily in TN...Not just among neo-nazi men (which I've never met or seen in my life), if you can believe that. White men, white women, black men, black women, Asian men, disabled people, Christians, and atheists...granted the one gay person I know didn't vote for him, and I know no Muslims. That's the point, for many people this was rejection of the political correctness and identity politics that has been pushed so heavily in the last decade. Of course having an awful and corrupt establishment candidate on the left didn't hurt Trumps election odds either. That was also a major part of it. Trump supporters, on the whole, don't want to hang blacks, and torch gays, or even deport US citizens with brown skin. Most, I believe, would even intervene with violence, if needed, if such actions were actually attempted.

Don't worry, you anti-gun hippies. I own and can efficiently operate a firearm. If they come for you, I'll be one of the many who come to your aid. Can we stop pretending that sky is falling? Legalized pot will take a while longer, we will have immigration reform, we'll have another attempt at broken healthcare, and in 4-8 years we'll give it a another go, hopefully with better results.

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14-11-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 11:04 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 03:20 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Of course Trump is not the leader of 4th Reich. The 4th Reich is a concept first coined over 90 years ago in Germany. Trump and the Republican party are all American in the early 21st Century.

Yes, I know that you weren't being literal but this is my as well point. It isn't going to be the same, but that doesn't mean to say that there doesn't exist the strong possibility of a full blown neo-fascist government in America. Fascism does not equal national socialism. National socialism is a form of fascism. Fascism originally came from Mussolini. Regardless of the cultural shape it takes on, the techniques are the same. This is because they work.

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying that it can happen considering how Trump got elected and the historical trends that have led up to this point.

Yet you're saying for sure that it won't happen, that it will be all right. What exactly are you basing this on? Personal experience? If so then that's an argument from personal ignorance because you have not experienced anything else. Cycles repeat as lessons fall out of living memory. This is why we need to learn from history.

I am basing it on the constitutional protections, in part. Even you you say that that isn't worth the paper it's written on, and you ignore all other checks and balances we have, I know a ton of Trump supporters, he won heavily in TN...Not just among neo-nazi men (which I've never met or seen in my life), if you can believe that. White men, white women, black men, black women, Asian men, disabled people, Christians, and atheists...granted the one gay person I know didn't vote for him, and I know no Muslims. That's the point, for many people this was rejection of the political correctness and identity politics that has been pushed so heavily in the last decade. Of course having an awful and corrupt establishment candidate on the left didn't hurt Trumps election odds either. That was also a major part of it. Trump supporters, on the whole, don't want to hang blacks, and torch gays, or even deport US citizens with brown skin. Most, I believe, would even intervene with violence, if needed, if such actions were actually attempted.

Don't worry, you anti-gun hippies. I own and can efficiently operate a firearm. If they come for you, I'll be one of the many who come to your aid. Can we stop pretending that sky is falling? Legalized pot will take a while longer, we will have immigration reform, we'll have another attempt at broken healthcare, and in 4-8 years we'll give it a another go, hopefully with better results.

You forgot to mention a Supreme Court packed with right-wing extremists for the next 20-30 years. That goes way beyond any of this "4-8 years" stuff.
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14-11-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 11:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 11:04 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I am basing it on the constitutional protections, in part. Even you you say that that isn't worth the paper it's written on, and you ignore all other checks and balances we have, I know a ton of Trump supporters, he won heavily in TN...Not just among neo-nazi men (which I've never met or seen in my life), if you can believe that. White men, white women, black men, black women, Asian men, disabled people, Christians, and atheists...granted the one gay person I know didn't vote for him, and I know no Muslims. That's the point, for many people this was rejection of the political correctness and identity politics that has been pushed so heavily in the last decade. Of course having an awful and corrupt establishment candidate on the left didn't hurt Trumps election odds either. That was also a major part of it. Trump supporters, on the whole, don't want to hang blacks, and torch gays, or even deport US citizens with brown skin. Most, I believe, would even intervene with violence, if needed, if such actions were actually attempted.

Don't worry, you anti-gun hippies. I own and can efficiently operate a firearm. If they come for you, I'll be one of the many who come to your aid. Can we stop pretending that sky is falling? Legalized pot will take a while longer, we will have immigration reform, we'll have another attempt at broken healthcare, and in 4-8 years we'll give it a another go, hopefully with better results.

You forgot to mention a Supreme Court packed with right-wing extremists for the next 20-30 years. That goes way beyond any of this "4-8 years" stuff.

Yep, It'll go on longer than I will likely live...it's a life sentence for me. Thank dog I am not child bearing age or younger.

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14-11-2016, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2016 01:08 PM by Mathilda.)
RE: Protesters take to the streets
One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is how authoritarian leaning governments try to shape the thoughts of the populace. Once the Nazis got into power they started taking control of all aspects of daily life, including even recreation. They became pervasive. They indoctrinated the children too.

America won't ever have a fascist government per se, it's just not American. It's actually quite obvious what form the dictatorship would have. Margaret Atwood even wrote The Handmaid's Tale in 1985 to speculate on what such a government would look like. I'm not saying that she got it right in how she described it, but you can bet that it would have very strong theocratic leanings.

We know that the Republicans will be the ones doing the actual work for Trump. We know that they predominantly have very traditional Christian values and views on marriage, reproductive rights and strict gender roles. We know that Christianity has an extremely long history of being a pervasive form of social control. We know that the monotheists try to indoctrinate children from a very early age when they lack critical thinking skills so the conditioning stays with them for life. And the most important thing, which is what Trump is lacking, we know they have sincerity of conviction and the utmost belief that what they are doing is morally right.

That is a very dangerous set of ingredients.

So don't compare Trump to Hitler. It's never about a single man. It's all about a movement. The charismatic demagogue who can get the votes, the politicians who strongly believe in exceptionalism with some moral imperative which allows them to play the long game, and the disenfranchised and poorly educated voters desperately in need of pride again.

America has all these things now. Trump could just play golf all day for the next four years and America would still be going down a very dark and dangerous road. In fact we'd all be better off if he did. There was a reason why the allies never wanted to assassinate Hitler.
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14-11-2016, 01:37 PM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
Perfectly said, Mathilda.

I just got into an argument (online) with someone who said while she dislikes trump, she is very happy about Pence. I will copy and paste what she said:

"I, for one, and pretty excited about Pence for VP. He has historically been a big supporter of the homeschool community, which has been under attack by many liberal politicians for years and years. The media doesn't report on that though, so most people never even know. So far, its usually kept at the state level (which is where I want it, and where it should be, as Education SHOULD be a state issue and not a federal issue), but Kaine has pushed hard to take away the rights of parents in the state of VA (not just on homeschooling), plus, he's just slimy, so frankly, i'm incredibly relieved to see him out.

Maybe Trump will be a total bust, but maybe, just maybe, he wont be. He may not be who I wanted, but I'm at least willing to give him a chance to prove himself in this roll. And in the mean time, I will continue to fight for my values- for religious freedom, parental rights, equal rights for all, health freedom, states rights, fiscal responsibility, etc- REGARDLESS of who is in office."

My argument back was:

"I think what you really mean is:

Religious freedom (for christians only - especially evangelicals)
Equal rights for all (unless you are black/minority, or gay, or a woman, or an immigrant)
Health freedom (unless you want an abortion, then fuck you, go to Canada)"

no reply yet.

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14-11-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 11:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 11:04 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I am basing it on the constitutional protections, in part. Even you you say that that isn't worth the paper it's written on, and you ignore all other checks and balances we have, I know a ton of Trump supporters, he won heavily in TN...Not just among neo-nazi men (which I've never met or seen in my life), if you can believe that. White men, white women, black men, black women, Asian men, disabled people, Christians, and atheists...granted the one gay person I know didn't vote for him, and I know no Muslims. That's the point, for many people this was rejection of the political correctness and identity politics that has been pushed so heavily in the last decade. Of course having an awful and corrupt establishment candidate on the left didn't hurt Trumps election odds either. That was also a major part of it. Trump supporters, on the whole, don't want to hang blacks, and torch gays, or even deport US citizens with brown skin. Most, I believe, would even intervene with violence, if needed, if such actions were actually attempted.

Don't worry, you anti-gun hippies. I own and can efficiently operate a firearm. If they come for you, I'll be one of the many who come to your aid. Can we stop pretending that sky is falling? Legalized pot will take a while longer, we will have immigration reform, we'll have another attempt at broken healthcare, and in 4-8 years we'll give it a another go, hopefully with better results.

You forgot to mention a Supreme Court packed with right-wing extremists for the next 20-30 years. That goes way beyond any of this "4-8 years" stuff.

You may not like a judge appointed by Trump, but any judge confirmed will not affirm that roasting minorities over an open flame to get answers about illegal Mexicans is constitutional. Anyone who is buying into the deathcamp scare-hype has allowed themselves to be robbed of reason by a media who cares more about getting people tuned in than it does about revealing the truth.

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14-11-2016, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2016 03:21 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Protesters take to the streets
(14-11-2016 03:02 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 11:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You forgot to mention a Supreme Court packed with right-wing extremists for the next 20-30 years. That goes way beyond any of this "4-8 years" stuff.

You may not like a judge appointed by Trump, but any judge confirmed will not affirm that roasting minorities over an open flame to get answers about illegal Mexicans is constitutional. Anyone who is buying into the deathcamp scare-hype has allowed themselves to be robbed of reason by a media who cares more about getting people tuned in than it does about revealing the truth.

They could very well affirm, though, that abortion is illegal, that same-sex marriage is illegal, and/or that atheism is illegal. I guarantee that VP-elect Pence would heartily endorse all three of those, and if he has any say about it, so will any prospective SCOTUS appointees. I don't know about you, but I want no part of a Christian theocracy.

I'm not especially worried about death camps. But there are plenty of other things to worry about with the coming administration.
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