Proving God existence
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18-09-2014, 03:39 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 01:51 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Radioactive decay is a continuous process it will not change from static to dynamic!

The same argument applies to your so-called proof where you talk about "All Statuses separated from (1/1/2000 00:00:00) by a finite number of seconds "

http://atheistforums.org/thread-17781.html

The universe is not synchronised like the clock speed of a computer.

Another failing of your so-called proof is that it could just as easily be used to argue that there has been an infinite history but that time will stop at some point in the future.

Sounds less plausible than appealing to the existence of a creator? Well consider that energy cannot be created or destroyed and that entropy always increases globally. This suggests the possibility that the universe will suffer a heat death as it expands so much that gradients of thermodynamic free energy no longer exist.
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18-09-2014, 05:02 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2014 05:07 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 02:36 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 06:17 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Your "proof" starts with asserting that a subset of the Integer set is a set of infinite numbers, then goes downhill from there. If we are to accept your proof we find that it contradicts the notion of an infinite being and therefore disproves your god. Your proof is self-contradictory. Every theory and every proof is stronger than your "proof". Are you really so invested as to not be able to see the flaws in your argument?
Infinite being! Who said that?

As of your weak position refuting the proof, you just assume wrong things then refute them No

... and yet you have not even attempted to address my refutation[1]. But I'll play along: So Allah is not infinite. Allah does not exist through the infinity of Allah time, but instead there is a point in Allah time before which either no Allah time exists or Allah does not exist within Allah time.

Or to be more formal, there exists a state A(0) such that Allah exists in state A(0) and then exists for each A(n) such that 0 < n. Either Allah does not exist in state A(-1), or it is nonsensical to attempt to describe A(-1). That is, Allah either started to exist in state A(0) or Allah time itself begins with state A(0). Feel free to choose your description of this non-infinite Allah and clarify which of these points is true, or otherwise explain your point of view.

I presume that in your view nothing about this description requires Allah to have a creator. Correct?

Now let's review the behaviour of the Universe and Universe time.

There exists a state U(0) such that the Universe as we know it exists in state U(0) and then exists for each U(n) such that 0 < n < p, where p is the present Universe time. Either the universe does not exist in state U(-1), or it is nonsensical to attempt to describe U(-1). That is, the Universe either started to exist in state U(0) or Universe time itself begins with state U(0).

I presume that in your view this description required the Universe to have a creator. Correct?

Please describe the difference between the description of the Universe and the description of Allah that requires one to have a creator and one to not require a creator.

(18-09-2014 02:30 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Actually this proves an important attribute of the creator as well
He is one (unit), he cannot have organs or "cause and effect" inside himself (he doesn't even have an inside and outside, he is just one Deity
... or are you then conceding that there is no Allah time, and that A(0) is the total description of Allah? If so, please do describe how a being that cannot have cause and effect could cause the universe.

If that is your point of view, how do you reconcile that view with:
Quote:A complete Universe function must include another parameter to change from constant to dynamic at t=0 E(0,p)=C+G(p)
It should be E(t,p)=T U(t)+G(p)
G must exist and did created/changed the universe at its beginning
We can call this parameter the actions of a creator (G)
... where you explicitly call out p (Allah time) as a required component of the existence of Allah?

[1] http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid638449

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-09-2014, 05:10 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2014 05:44 AM by Muslim.)
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 03:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 01:51 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Radioactive decay is a continuous process it will not change from static to dynamic!

The same argument applies to your so-called proof where you talk about "All Statuses separated from (1/1/2000 00:00:00) by a finite number of seconds "
How is that?
Something static cannot start to change by itself, how this applies to Radiation???

Quote:Another failing of your so-called proof is that it could just as easily be used to argue that there has been an infinite history but that time will stop at some point in the future.
Nice try! but no
At any point of time in the future, we can look back and say (We are in the year ######)

It doesn't matter how many years will pass, we will still represent it in a number (We have an infinite numbers of numbers as you know Laugh out load )

Quote:Sounds less plausible than appealing to the existence of a creator? Well consider that energy cannot be created or destroyed and that entropy always increases globally.
This is an observation not logic it may apply or not outside our universe (or even beyond our knowledge)

Quote:This suggests the possibility that the universe will suffer a heat death as it expands so much that gradients of thermodynamic free energy no longer exist.
Maybe, anyway it is not related to the proof.
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18-09-2014, 05:19 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:10 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  The same argument applies to your so-called proof where you talk about "All Statuses separated from (1/1/2000 00:00:00) by a finite number of seconds "
How is that?
Something static cannot start to change by itself, how this applies to Radiation???

Quote:Another failing of your so-called proof is that it could just as easily be used to argue that there has been an infinite history but that time will stop at some point in the future.
Nice try! but no
At any point of time in the future, we can look back and say (We are in the year ######)

It doesn't matter how many years will pass, we will still represent it in a number (We have an infinite numbers of numbers as you know :lolSmile

Quote:Sounds less plausible than appealing to the existence of a creator? Well consider that energy cannot be created or destroyed and that entropy always increases globally.
This is an observation not logic it may apply or not outside our universe (or even beyond our knowledge)

Quote:This suggests the possibility that the universe will suffer a heat death as it expands so much that gradients of thermodynamic free energy no longer exist.
Maybe, anyway it is not related to the proof.


You have no proof.
You have ideas.
Ideas are not proof.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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18-09-2014, 05:41 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:02 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 02:36 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Infinite being! Who said that?

As of your weak position refuting the proof, you just assume wrong things then refute them No

... and yet you have not even attempted to address my refutation[1]. But I'll play along: So Allah is not infinite. Allah does not exist through the infinity of Allah time, but instead there is a point in Allah time before which either no Allah time exists or Allah does not exist within Allah time.

Or to be more formal, there exists a state A(0) such that Allah exists in state A(0) and then exists for each A(n) such that 0 < n. Either Allah does not exist in state A(-1), or it is nonsensical to attempt to describe A(-1). That is, Allah either started to exist in state A(0) or Allah time itself begins with state A(0). Feel free to choose your description of this non-infinite Allah and clarify which of these points is true, or otherwise explain your point of view.
Good, now that is something Thumbsup

To get the correct answer we need to follow Logic not our perspective or beliefs
Yes there was A(0)
God didn't do anything before it, yet he existed forever before that
For How long?
It doesn't apply and there was no time
(The trick here is to use my definition of time)


Quote:I presume that in your view nothing about this description requires Allah to have a creator. Correct?
It is included in U, if you have like a chain of creators they will be inside U and everything applies the same
(I admit that I need to think about this more)


Quote:There exists a state U(0) such that the Universe as we know it exists in state U(0) and then exists for each U(n) such that 0 < n < p, where p is the present Universe time. Either the universe does not exist in state U(-1), or it is nonsensical to attempt to describe U(-1). That is, the Universe either started to exist in state U(0) or Universe time itself begins with state U(0).
Yes

Quote:I presume that in your view this description required the Universe to have a creator. Correct?

Please describe the difference between the description of the Universe and the description of Allah that requires one to have a creator and one to not require a creator.
It is mandated by logic not by my description
as the Universe (or anything else) is dynamic, it needs a starter
this starter must be external to the universe, etc.

Quote:
(18-09-2014 02:30 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Actually this proves an important attribute of the creator as well
He is one (unit), he cannot have organs or "cause and effect" inside himself (he doesn't even have an inside and outside, he is just one Deity
... or are you then conceding that there is no Allah time, and that A(0) is the total description of Allah? If so, please do describe how a being that cannot have cause and effect could cause the universe.
Logic is different than science
As science is only related to our observations, There is no way that we can understand that!

Quote:... where you explicitly call out p (Allah time) as a required component of the existence of Allah?
What we can know is related to creation
Before creation there is no time, after creation time can be measured related to events
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18-09-2014, 05:44 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:19 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 05:10 AM)Muslim Wrote:  How is that?
Something static cannot start to change by itself, how this applies to Radiation???

Nice try! but no
At any point of time in the future, we can look back and say (We are in the year ######)

It doesn't matter how many years will pass, we will still represent it in a number (We have an infinite numbers of numbers as you know :lolSmile

This is an observation not logic it may apply or not outside our universe (or even beyond our knowledge)

Maybe, anyway it is not related to the proof.


You have no proof.
You have ideas.
Ideas are not proof.
I'm sorry but it is a proof by all means
it has premises, steps and conclusion
It may be false but still a proof
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18-09-2014, 05:46 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 05:19 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You have no proof.
You have ideas.
Ideas are not proof.
I'm sorry but it is a proof by all means
it has premises, steps and conclusion
It may be false but still a proof



Nope.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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18-09-2014, 05:52 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:41 AM)Muslim Wrote:  To get the correct answer we need to follow Logic not our perspective or beliefs
Yes there was A(0)
God didn't do anything before it, yet he existed forever before that
For How long?
It doesn't apply and there was no time
(The trick here is to use my definition of time)

No. Wrong again Muzzy-Wuzzy. Logic is necessary, but not sufficient. You also need EVIDENCE. There are coutless logical systems which *could* exist, but do not. Logic alone is not sufficient.

(18-09-2014 05:41 AM)Muslim Wrote:  God didn't do anything before it, yet he existed forever before that
For How long?
It doesn't apply and there was no time

Yet YOU contradict YOURSELF. YOU insist on using the word "before". Without time the word is meaningless, (in spite of your attempted LOGICAL FALLACY --- Special Pleading). If "it doesn't apply", then the ONLY thing left for you, is to STFU about the subject, or DEMONSTRATE the alternative. You have never done that.

(18-09-2014 05:41 AM)Muslim Wrote:  (The trick here is to use my definition of time)

Yes indeed. Isn't that always just the way it goes with all you internet nut-jobs.
"Just accept MY unproven, undemonstrated, unaccepted-BY-ANYONE-IN-THE-ENTIRE-WORLD bullshit, and you'll have MY truth". Weeping
"Zime" : Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load FacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-09-2014, 05:53 AM
RE: Proving God existence
(18-09-2014 05:10 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Another failing of your so-called proof is that it could just as easily be used to argue that there has been an infinite history but that time will stop at some point in the future.
Nice try! but no
At any point of time in the future, we can look back and say (We are in the year ######)

That's not even an argument against there being an infinite history. All we can do is pick an arbitrary period of time from the universe as it currently exists (e.g. the time it currently takes for our particular planet to rotate around the sun) and a particular event that we know about.

We do not know what happened before the Big bang, or even that the concept is valid considering that we're talking about the expansion of space-time.



(18-09-2014 05:10 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Sounds less plausible than appealing to the existence of a creator? Well consider that energy cannot be created or destroyed and that entropy always increases globally.
This is an observation not logic it may apply or not outside our universe (or even beyond our knowledge)

Irrelevant. We do not know whether anything exists outside of our universe and even the concept of 'universe' has to be redefined before we could conclude that something did exist outside of it.

All we can talk about is what we have the potential to observe, and that by definition has to be some kind of natural phenomenon within our universe.

You can apply the rules of logic to argue for the existence of anything if your conjecture or hypothesis is not falsifiable. Therefore it becomes a meaningless exercise.

This is why we need the scientific method.


(18-09-2014 05:10 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  This suggests the possibility that the universe will suffer a heat death as it expands so much that gradients of thermodynamic free energy no longer exist.
Maybe, anyway it is not related to the proof.

In that case your so-called proof is lacking because it does not take into account some of the most fundamental laws of Physics that underlie the nature of the universe.
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18-09-2014, 06:47 AM
RE: Proving God existence
Quote:It is not something new because science proved the big bang and the start of the universe

observable known universe*

We don't know what was before the big bang or if there is anything beyond what we can see.
Light takes time to get from A to B, we don't know what is beyond the observable universe.

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