Proving a negative?
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22-07-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Proving a negative?
All claims are positive, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter if the claims says that something exists, or something doesn't exist.

Both carry the burden of proof. Proof, however, is subjected to what can be detected in some way. If no proof can be detected, then the default position is that it does not exist.

Could you be wrong? Yes. But at the time that no proof has been detected of something in existence or in a state of non-existence, then the claim of something such as "God does not exist" is proven to be true.

Positive proof of a non existence is proven by the absence of existence.
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22-07-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Proving a negative?
(22-07-2016 02:47 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Positive proof of a non existence is proven by the absence of existence.

Or by showing that a claim contradicts know facts or that a claim attempts to integrate two contradictory notions such as the claim that square circles exist.

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24-07-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Proving a negative?
(22-07-2016 02:47 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  All claims are positive, in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but your opinion is wrong—according to the tenets of logic.

Quote:It doesn't matter if the claims says that something exists, or something doesn't exist. Both carry the burden of proof.
Wrong again. The burden of proof for a claim is always the task of the proponent of that claim. If I say I can fly, I have to jump off the roof to prove it; it's not up to you to disprove it.

Can you prove to me that leprechauns do not exist? Nope.

Quote:But at the time that no proof has been detected of something in existence or in a state of non-existence, then the claim of something such as "God does not exist" is proven to be true.
Nonsensical "logic". Nothing can be in a state of non-existence; it's meaningless.

Quote:Positive proof of a non existence is proven by the absence of existence.
Not necessarily; argumentum ad ignorantiam is a fallacy of informal logic, in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence".

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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26-07-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: Proving a negative?
(24-07-2016 03:01 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 02:47 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  All claims are positive, in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but your opinion is wrong—according to the tenets of logic.

What tenets are you speaking of?

Quote:
Quote:It doesn't matter if the claims says that something exists, or something doesn't exist. Both carry the burden of proof.
Wrong again. The burden of proof for a claim is always the task of the proponent of that claim. If I say I can fly, I have to jump off the roof to prove it; it's not up to you to disprove it.

Can you prove to me that leprechauns do not exist? Nope.

Sure.

Evidence of Absence


Quote:
Quote:But at the time that no proof has been detected of something in existence or in a state of non-existence, then the claim of something such as "God does not exist" is proven to be true.
Nonsensical "logic". Nothing can be in a state of non-existence; it's meaningless.

It means the "condition" of:

Condition

Quote:
Quote:Positive proof of a non existence is proven by the absence of existence.

Not necessarily; argumentum ad ignorantiam is a fallacy of informal logic, in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence".

Again, meet "modern logic."

Evidence of absence

It's actually very interesting if you give it a chance.

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26-07-2016, 10:10 PM
RE: Proving a negative?
I don't make claims, I challenge them to prove theirs.
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28-07-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Proving a negative?
(26-07-2016 08:14 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 03:01 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you prove to me that leprechauns do not exist?

Sure.

Evidence of Absence

This avoids answering my question to you: Can you prove to me that leprechauns don't exist? (Your cited response is as poor as the theists who quote biblical chapter and verse as "proof" of their claims.)

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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28-07-2016, 09:14 AM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2016 09:35 AM by Gawdzilla.)
RE: Proving a negative?
(28-07-2016 09:05 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 08:14 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Sure.

Evidence of Absence

This avoids answering my question to you: Can you prove to me that leprechauns don't exist? (Your cited response is as poor as the theists who quote biblical chapter and verse as "proof" of their claims.)
Your question is inverting the problem. You have the burden of proof if you claim leprechauns exist. Until you do there's no reason to believe they exist.
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28-07-2016, 09:23 AM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2016 09:28 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Proving a negative?
(22-07-2016 02:47 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  All claims are positive, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter if the claims says that something exists, or something doesn't exist.

Both carry the burden of proof. Proof, however, is subjected to what can be detected in some way. If no proof can be detected, then the default position is that it does not exist.

Could you be wrong? Yes. But at the time that no proof has been detected of something in existence or in a state of non-existence, then the claim of something such as "God does not exist" is proven to be true.

Positive proof of a non existence is proven by the absence of existence.

I think you might be interested in reading this older thread where the topic is discussed at length.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Of-Absence

It starts to get good around post #118

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-07-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Proving a negative?
(28-07-2016 09:14 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 09:05 AM)SYZ Wrote:  This avoids answering my question to you: Can you prove to me that leprechauns don't exist? (Your cited response is as poor as the theists who quote biblical chapter and verse as "proof" of their claims.)
Your question is inverting the problem. You have the burden of proof if you claim leprechauns exist. Until you do there's no reason to believe they exist.

I think you may have misunderstood the thrust of my question. I've never claimed leprechauns exist.

GoingUp said "it doesn't matter if the claims says that something exists, or something doesn't exist. Both carry the burden of proof". I was asking him/her to prove that something doesn't exist. And despite admitting that he/she carried the burden of proof either way, he/she declined that burden.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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28-07-2016, 10:01 AM
RE: Proving a negative?
(28-07-2016 09:05 AM)SYZ Wrote:  This avoids answering my question to you: Can you prove to me that leprechauns don't exist? (Your cited response is as poor as the theists who quote biblical chapter and verse as "proof" of their claims.)

I can prove to you that there's no crocodile exists under my bed currently. All I would have to do is take a picture of my bed and show that no crocodile exists underneath there, or have you come over and check for yourself.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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