Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
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06-03-2013, 05:11 AM
Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
I wonder how many here have had Psalm 14:1 quoted at them:
Quote:The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

I often find myself perusing the sources of interesting or incongruous quotes and looked this one up in the NIV. It's context seems to clash with the quote:
Quote:The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord. But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge. Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

So what does foolishness have to do with the rest of this chapter? Ahh, the footnote adds some clarity:
Quote:Psalm 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient.

Some thoughts:
* If this passage applies to all atheists then far from being a generic middle finger, this passage is making a testable prediction that atheists cannot be good without god. This being a false prediction it serves as an additional potential disproof of Biblical inerrancy.
* However, taken in context it seems not to apply to atheists in general but instead to a specific people group who are accused cannibals and doers of other evil deeds and doesn't apply to atheists in general
* Worse, it seems to be war propaganda. The demonisation here seems to be a prelude to war or genocide and further serves to show that God's people were not acting morally in this time.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

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06-03-2013, 06:42 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 05:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I wonder how many here have had Psalm 14:1 quoted at them:
Quote:The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

I often find myself perusing the sources of interesting or incongruous quotes and looked this one up in the NIV. It's context seems to clash with the quote:
Quote:The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord. But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge. Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

So what does foolishness have to do with the rest of this chapter? Ahh, the footnote adds some clarity:
Quote:Psalm 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient.

Some thoughts:
* If this passage applies to all atheists then far from being a generic middle finger, this passage is making a testable prediction that atheists cannot be good without god. This being a false prediction it serves as an additional potential disproof of Biblical inerrancy.
* However, taken in context it seems not to apply to atheists in general but instead to a specific people group who are accused cannibals and doers of other evil deeds and doesn't apply to atheists in general
* Worse, it seems to be war propaganda. The demonisation here seems to be a prelude to war or genocide and further serves to show that God's people were not acting morally in this time.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV
Well done.

Even if it did mean what Christians think it means, its existence in the bible doesn't make it compelling. Muslims could also say, "the fool in his heart says there is no Allah", and Christians wouldn't suddenly think, "Oh! I've been a fool all along then!"

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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06-03-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:If this passage applies to all atheists then far from being a generic middle finger, this passage is making a testable prediction that atheists cannot be good without god. This being a false prediction it serves as an additional potential disproof of Biblical inerrancy.
It is an utterly testable prediction. "Moral badness" in context of the scriptures would include disobeying the 613 mitzvot of the Torah. Exodus 20 lists prominently "Worship God and Him alone." There are hundreds of other laws in the scriptures that Atheists find contemptible and appalling. Done. You may want to look at Psalm 53:1 also for a comparison. Thanks.
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06-03-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 10:42 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:If this passage applies to all atheists then far from being a generic middle finger, this passage is making a testable prediction that atheists cannot be good without god. This being a false prediction it serves as an additional potential disproof of Biblical inerrancy.
It is an utterly testable prediction. "Moral badness" in context of the scriptures would include disobeying the 613 mitzvot of the Torah. Exodus 20 lists prominently "Worship God and Him alone." There are hundreds of other laws in the scriptures that Atheists find contemptible and appalling. Done. You may want to look at Psalm 53:1 also for a comparison. Thanks.
So, by your interpretation, the profound revelation this psalm is revealing to us is that the disobedient are disobedient. It's a good thing we have that book full of such words of wisdom. We'd surely be lost without them. Laughat

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:So, by your interpretation, the profound revelation this psalm is revealing to us is that the disobedient are disobedient. It's a good thing we have that book full of such words of wisdom. We'd surely be lost without them. [Image: laughat.gif]
I thought of your objection before you wrote your post, but since you asked, I defended against the attack. Having said that, yes, scratch an Atheist and you'll find someone with an axe to grind and an ethical agenda of some kind that they know is anti-God or anti-Christian. I've shared this verse with perhaps 100 Atheists and then after a few questions, each admitted in turn they "sin" in ways that are atypical of Christian behavior.
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06-03-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 12:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So, by your interpretation, the profound revelation this psalm is revealing to us is that the disobedient are disobedient. It's a good thing we have that book full of such words of wisdom. We'd surely be lost without them. [Image: laughat.gif]
I thought of your objection before you wrote your post, but since you asked, I defended against the attack. Having said that, yes, scratch an Atheist and you'll find someone with an axe to grind and an ethical agenda of some kind that they know is anti-God or anti-Christian. I've shared this verse with perhaps 100 Atheists and then after a few questions, each admitted in turn they "sin" in ways that are atypical of Christian behavior.
Thanks for your opinion about atheists. Thumbsup
And, unless you mean specifically not worshiping the Christian god, which I understand is considered a sin by Christians, I find that last claim extremely difficult to believe. 100 out of 100? If anyone believes that, I have a piece of swamp land for sale...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2013, 01:35 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Nice one, atheist are smartass not fools....
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06-03-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:Thanks for your opinion about atheists.
You're welcome. 1. The Bible was right, which led me to take an anecdotal survey. 2. Having taken about 100 stories, the Bible was still right. Of course you do immoral things per the Bible definition...
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06-03-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Like you said, this doesn't apply or is even written about atheists.

It does not say that the morally deficient are atheists.

It says that all the morally deficient people are without God.

It has no correlation with having morals = believing in God.

If the word "fool" here is "morally deficient" then the verses say:

The morally deficient person says in his heart, “There is no God.” Morally deficient people are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord. But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge. Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

And yes, in context, it seems to be talking about a certain group of people.

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06-03-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 01:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Thanks for your opinion about atheists.
You're welcome. 1. The Bible was right, which led me to take an anecdotal survey. 2. Having taken about 100 stories, the Bible was still right. Of course you do immoral things per the Bible definition...

You're right... I had shrimp last week. SHRIMP!! Oh, I am a monster! How could I consume shrimp, the most evil of shellfish, in defiance of the word of our holy lord, the god of the mountains, javeh? Oh, and I am a curséd sinner! I am lost!!!!

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