Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
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06-03-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:The morally deficient person says in his heart, “There is no God.”
And who says in his heart, "There is no God"...?
Quote:You're right... I had shrimp last week. SHRIMP!! Oh, I am a monster! How could I consume shrimp, the most evil of shellfish, in defiance of the word of our holy lord, the god of the mountains, javeh? Oh, and I am a curséd sinner! I am lost!!!!
Are you a Jew? Eat as you wish. Phaedrus, this is one of your more uninformed statements...
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06-03-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
I'm informed, and I know that you consider that obsolete with the new testament (something that no one has yet demonstrated to me...). I'm just making fun of you.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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06-03-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 01:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Thanks for your opinion about atheists.
You're welcome. 1. The Bible was right, which led me to take an anecdotal survey. 2. Having taken about 100 stories, the Bible was still right. Of course you do immoral things per the Bible definition...
"Of course"? Consider Besides not worshiping a god, what are some of those immoral things you think I do?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2013, 05:06 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 04:47 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I'm informed, and I know that you consider that obsolete with the new testament (something that no one has yet demonstrated to me...). I'm just making fun of you.
Wait Phaedrus, I'm looking for that verse where Jesus said "My father's full of it. It's okay for you to eat shrimp."

** looking... looking... **

Weird. I couldn't find it. Ohmy

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 12:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I thought of your objection before you wrote your post, but since you asked, I defended against the attack. Having said that, yes, scratch an Atheist and you'll find someone with an axe to grind and an ethical agenda of some kind that they know is anti-God or anti-Christian. I've shared this verse with perhaps 100 Atheists and then after a few questions, each admitted in turn they "sin" in ways that are atypical of Christian behavior.

There's nothing like a good ol' stereotype to make one feel better about his or her point-of-view. Do you like being lumped in with other Christians as negatively stereotypical? Perhaps you ought not to do it yourself.

We've heard this objection a million times, in the more familiar form of "atheists are atheists because they want to sin or rebel". Strangely, I've never met a Christian who disbelieves the Q'uran and existence of Allah simply because they want to be able to break the rules found in the Q'uran or because they're "rebelling" against Allah.

You've got this correlation with sin and atheism backwards. Obviously we're not going to follow the rules of the bible because we don't see it as having any authority over us, any more than you strain to follow the laws of nations of which you are not a citizen. We didn't become atheists because we don't wish to follow the bible, but rather we don't follow the bible because we chose to be atheists.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-03-2013, 08:20 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:I'm informed, and I know that you consider that obsolete with the new testament (something that no one has yet demonstrated to me...). I'm just making fun of you.
I agree with you. If you're Jewish, however...
Quote:We've heard this objection a million times, in the more familiar form of "atheists are atheists because they want to sin or rebel". Strangely, I've never met a Christian who disbelieves the Q'uran and existence of Allah simply because they want to be able to break the rules found in the Q'uran or because they're "rebelling" against Allah.
You've met me. I'm COMPLETELY aware that Allah will have particular punishments for me and I have discussed this with Muslims many times. Regarding sin practices, however, the Bible makes good sense, say, regarding human sexuality. If even one generation would abstain before marriage and be faithful after, we could all but eliminate AIDS and other STD's. But freethinkers say fornication and adultery are choices or even evolutionary necessities. No, the Bible is STILL accurate.
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07-03-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 02:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like you said, this doesn't apply or is even written about atheists.

It does not say that the morally deficient are atheists.

It says that all the morally deficient people are without God.

It has no correlation with having morals = believing in God.

You are very correct. It is always cute when someone will take one sentence from an entire chapter to prove something that it never meant. Second, the word נבל is a scoundrel, a villian, not "fool". But given the context of the other sentences, this specific scoundrel is certainly being a fool. And the object identifier would better be "Said the foolish-scoundrel", a specific one. The scoundrel then not only says that there is no god, but now continues to speak about "them"which line 4 indicates as "My people" (the Jews). So the first sentence is better translated as "The foolish-scoundrel said 'There is no god! It is THEY [the jews] who have delt in a corrupt/ruined way. It is upon THEM who have done no good'."

This is a song about exile, and the one who perpetrated it, and then blamed the people he exiled, saying it was their own fault, since he could not believe that they were good. There scholars who guess who the villian was that did this (but to do so they have to give David prophecy or admit he didn't write it), but the ending of the paragraph shows that is not about all people who do not believe in a God, but a specific "godless" person who did evil and justified his point of view and living in a fantasy world.

That is the simple explanation. You can, however, use that as a jumping board to speak of the idea that this scoundrel sees that he can do great harm to many people, and either there is no God and so nothing can stop him, or God obviously approves, since he does not hear or respond to those whom he is supposed to be protecting. While it is not a bad position to take, the person who is taking it is a miscreant who delights in harming others. While an evil person can be an athiest, athiests are not evil.

Which is the leap in logic that some are obviously taking here.

Anyhow, that's not the NIV version. I am reading from the Hebrew text as the lone athiest in a right-wing Orthodox town south of Jerusalem! Smartass

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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07-03-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 10:22 AM)EGross Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 02:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like you said, this doesn't apply or is even written about atheists.

It does not say that the morally deficient are atheists.

It says that all the morally deficient people are without God.

It has no correlation with having morals = believing in God.

You are very correct. It is always cute when someone will take one sentence from an entire chapter to prove something that it never meant. Second, the word נבל is a scoundrel, a villian, not "fool". But given the context of the other sentences, this specific scoundrel is certainly being a fool. And the object identifier would better be "Said the foolish-scoundrel", a specific one. The scoundrel then not only says that there is no god, but now continues to speak about "them"which line 4 indicates as "My people" (the Jews). So the first sentence is better translated as "The foolish-scoundrel said 'There is no god! It is THEY [the jews] who have delt in a corrupt/ruined way. It is upon THEM who have done no good'."

This is a song about exile, and the one who perpetrated it, and then blamed the people he exiled, saying it was their own fault, since he could not believe that they were good. There scholars who guess who the villian was that did this (but to do so they have to give David prophecy or admit he didn't write it), but the ending of the paragraph shows that is not about all people who do not believe in a God, but a specific "godless" person who did evil and justified his point of view and living in a fantasy world.

That is the simple explanation. You can, however, use that as a jumping board to speak of the idea that this scoundrel sees that he can do great harm to many people, and either there is no God and so nothing can stop him, or God obviously approves, since he does not hear or respond to those whom he is supposed to be protecting. While it is not a bad position to take, the person who is taking it is a miscreant who delights in harming others. While an evil person can be an athiest, athiests are not evil.

Which is the leap in logic that some are obviously taking here.

Anyhow, that's not the NIV version. I am reading from the Hebrew text as the lone athiest in a right-wing Orthodox town south of Jerusalem! Smartass
Hi there and welcome Smile

Thanks for that confirmation. I've been working very hard on my Greek and Hebrew over the years, so it's good to know I'm somewhere on the right track.

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07-03-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:You are very correct. It is always cute when someone will take one sentence from an entire chapter to prove something that it never meant.
You bet. My "favorite" example is Matthew 7:1 where it says "not to judge"... unless you are a saved believer! Smile However, it is of NO consequence whether the person is Jewish or Gentile or frankly, "immoral" or "foolish" although the Hebrew is immoral. This bad person says THERE IS NO GOD IN THEIR HEART. This bad person, no matter whether Jew or Gentile, is an Atheist. Whatever they did to their fellow man, or as conjectured here against King David, they pushed off accountability to God by saying there is no God. Period.
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07-03-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
@PleaseJesus,
It would appear that the general theme, taking all of the sentences together, is really the author of the song declaring that just because you don't see God doing something to help, or to keep his promise, doesn't mean that there is no God, and one day God will actually get off His butt and do something.
A position I disagree with, obviously, since it also doesn't prove that there is one. The absense of something doesn't prove, just as the perception of something will not disprove. The quiet God of the holocaust does not prove that He exists, and the "mysterious ways" card is dog-eared and worn out.
The god of israel was really chatty and ostentatious 3500 years ago. 2000 years ago he had a load of zombies walking the earth just before the Passover meal (that would have been a fun night "Brains...brains..."). And after that, He just sort of shut up, just when historians were actually writing things down.
But do evil people believe in a God? Again, I would disagree that they are all disbelievers. Some of the greatest evil in the world has been done by true believers, and in His name. Which is why I indicated that this song cannot be generally applied, but specifically to an event that the author saw through his faith as a song of hope. But as history attests, it only got worse later on - not better, so it was a vain hope for a permanent return.

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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