Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
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07-03-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 10:57 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You are very correct. It is always cute when someone will take one sentence from an entire chapter to prove something that it never meant.
You bet. My "favorite" example is Matthew 7:1 where it says "not to judge"... unless you are a saved believer! Smile However, it is of NO consequence whether the person is Jewish or Gentile or frankly, "immoral" or "foolish" although the Hebrew is immoral. This bad person says THERE IS NO GOD IN THEIR HEART. This bad person, no matter whether Jew or Gentile, is an Atheist. Whatever they did to their fellow man, or as conjectured here against King David, they pushed off accountability to God by saying there is no God. Period.
Hmmm, actually... after looking further, the word is more correctly translated as "insulting God". So, fool = insulter of God.

Source and then Ctrl+F "Psalm 14:1".

So, "insulter of God" is corrupt.

Who is this "they" or this "one"? There is no Hebrew word for whom they are talking about. So, we have to go to the context. Who is David addressing? During this time, it can best be dated at the time of David's writing that he was dealing with the corruption of Saul and the continual oppression by the Philistines.

Given what we know about Saul's corruption and the pagan Philistines, it seems pretty obvious as to what David was saying.

He is accusing the "they" and the "one" of being without God and being corrupt. Correlation does not imply causation; basically, just because David calls them corrupt and without God doesn't mean that they are corrupt because they are without God.

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07-03-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 08:20 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:We've heard this objection a million times, in the more familiar form of "atheists are atheists because they want to sin or rebel". Strangely, I've never met a Christian who disbelieves the Q'uran and existence of Allah simply because they want to be able to break the rules found in the Q'uran or because they're "rebelling" against Allah.
You've met me. I'm COMPLETELY aware that Allah will have particular punishments for me and I have discussed this with Muslims many times. Regarding sin practices, however, the Bible makes good sense, say, regarding human sexuality. If even one generation would abstain before marriage and be faithful after, we could all but eliminate AIDS and other STD's. But freethinkers say fornication and adultery are choices or even evolutionary necessities. No, the Bible is STILL accurate.
Do you know what a "straw man" argument is? It's when you misrepresent someone's argument in order to take on a weaker target. I didn't say that Christians were "unaware" of the Q'uran's laws. I said that Christians didn't believe in a non-Muslim God because of their need to avoid being responsible for following the Q'uran (and/or their need to rebel against Allah), which is the accusation that you leveled at atheists (substituting "Christian" for Muslim and "Bible" for Q'uran).

And while your example about a single sin making practical sense is not a very good one (AIDS, for example, can be gained through practices other than sexual intercourse, so sex after marriage would in fact not wipe it out) it's fair to say that some "sins" are practical (such as avoiding stealing or murder as two obvious examples). However, there are plenty of sins that don't make practical sense (such as not taking the lord's name in vain or not working on the Sabbath) and thus you agree with on a different basis (because you feel that you have to follow them, as they are in the bible). And if a sin suddenly became impractical, such as two unmarried virgins having intercourse with a condom (thus eliminating fear of STD's and pregnancy), would it suddenly become "unsinful"? No, because the practical effects of sin are not what truly bother you, so please don't use that as an excuse.

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07-03-2013, 01:07 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:Correlation does not imply causation; basically, just because David calls them corrupt and without God doesn't mean that they are corrupt because they are without God.
The sole person(s) in the Bible who are said to be without God in their heart are called corrupt/fools/immoral. Do you disagree?
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07-03-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:However, there are plenty of sins that don't make practical sense (such as not taking the lord's name in vain or not working on the Sabbath) and thus you agree with on a different basis (because you feel that you have to follow them, as they are in the bible). And if a sin suddenly became impractical, such as two unmarried virgins having intercourse with a condom (thus eliminating fear of STD's and pregnancy), would it suddenly become "unsinful"? No, because the practical effects of sin are not what truly bother you, so please don't use that as an excuse.
Both commandments you mentioned drive away from trusting in Christ, our salvation. Jesus is our Sabbath rest and He is to be taken as holy. Condoms are not 100% effective against pregnancy, STDs or broken hearts and busted relationships. No--there is only one Law in the Bible I can think of that may be broken to anyone's benefit. Thanks.
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07-03-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Correlation does not imply causation; basically, just because David calls them corrupt and without God doesn't mean that they are corrupt because they are without God.
The sole person(s) in the Bible who are said to be without God in their heart are called corrupt/fools/immoral. Do you disagree?
Yes, the person(s) that is being addressed is said to be without God and is called corrupt/fools/immoral. I've never said differently.

What I'm saying, and what the verses say, is that just because a person is without God doesn't make them corrupt/foolish/immoral.

It just so happens that this person(s) happened to be without God in their heart and was corrupt/foolish/immoral.

Don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

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07-03-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:Yes, the person(s) that is being addressed is said to be without God and is called corrupt/fools/immoral. I've never said differently.

What I'm saying, and what the verses say, is that just because a person is without God doesn't make them corrupt/foolish/immoral.

It just so happens that this person(s) happened to be without God in their heart and was corrupt/foolish/immoral.

Don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
I don't understand. I thought you are a firm believer in total depravity, making both the Christian and the Athiest immoral, depraved people...?
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07-03-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 03:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, the person(s) that is being addressed is said to be without God and is called corrupt/fools/immoral. I've never said differently.

What I'm saying, and what the verses say, is that just because a person is without God doesn't make them corrupt/foolish/immoral.

It just so happens that this person(s) happened to be without God in their heart and was corrupt/foolish/immoral.

Don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
I don't understand. I thought you are a firm believer in total depravity, making both the Christian and the Athiest immoral, depraved people...?
I'm speaking from a general sense not a totality sense.

Yes, humanity is depraved, but that's not what we're addressing nor what we're talking about. This is a strawman in regards to what we're discussing.

Besides, it's still irrelevant to the discussion of being without God = immorality.

Again, we are talking about the connotation of morality; not the sinful nature of humanity.

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07-03-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
Quote:Again, we are talking about the connotation of morality; not the sinful nature of humanity.
Are you certain? Read Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 in their entirety and then say which you think these verses fall on... thanks!
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07-03-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 03:26 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Again, we are talking about the connotation of morality; not the sinful nature of humanity.
Are you certain? Read Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 in their entirety and then say which you think these verses fall on... thanks!
We aren't discussing what the verses mean. We are discussing the accusation that these verses say that atheism = immorality.

Stop trying to beat the stawman. I'm not letting you go there.

Everything I presented showed that, in fact, nothing in the scripture said that those without God are immoral because they are without God.

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07-03-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
In Psalms 14 and 53, I see your point. Do you feel the same regarding Romans 1?
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