Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
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07-03-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 03:49 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In Psalms 14 and 53, I see your point. Do you feel the same regarding Romans 1?
Paul was addressing the Roman church about the city of Corinth and its idolatry worship and general reprehensible acts.

Again, this says nothing about those that reject God are immoral according to human terms (not in regards to total depravity).

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07-03-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
I see. Romans 1 says... "Therefore, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper..."
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07-03-2013, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 05:23 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 01:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Both commandments you mentioned drive away from trusting in Christ, our salvation. Jesus is our Sabbath rest and He is to be taken as holy. Condoms are not 100% effective against pregnancy, STDs or broken hearts and busted relationships. No--there is only one Law in the Bible I can think of that may be broken to anyone's benefit. Thanks.
"Jesis is our Sabbath rest and He is to be taken as holy" is not a practical reason for resting -- it's a religious one. Perhaps you just don't know what "practical" means. Do you see the Muslim commandment to pray while bowing towards Mecca as "practical" (on the basis that "Mecca is to be taken as holy") or religious?

And I probably should have stopped your pedantic answer before you made it (because I saw it coming), but if condoms were 100% effective against pregnancy, would that change your answer? Obviously not, so please don't waste my time with that argument. Again, it's not the consequences of the sin that keep you from sinning... it's the fact that they're in the bible, so don't pretend that the consequences are actually a reason that you don't sin.

I named only two examples, but there are many. Making a graven image of God doesn't hurt anyone. Women speaking up in church, preaching, or cutting their hair doesn't cause suffering. Cooking a cow in its mother's milk has no health risks. Etc.

There are also many arbitrary laws that clearly don't have anything to do with the consequences. You're probably familiar with the idea that a Jewish woman that wasn't a virgin before her marriage was to be stoned to death, but did you notice that there was no penalty for a Jewish man that wasn't a virgin at marriage? Clearly that's a double-standard that has nothing to do with STD's, broken hearts, or busted relationships. Did you ever notice that prostitution is not a sin? The bible doesn't speak well of whores, but there's not a single commandment against being one (and there's one commandment specifically directed at Hosea to marry one). And did you ever notice that abstinence is not a 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy? Just ask Jesus' mother Mary. Wink All kidding aside, you mentioned AIDS as a consequence of sin, but if that were the case then perhaps it shouldn't also have been possible to transfer AIDS from mother to innocent child through childbirth.

It's so easy to see why sin isn't related to morals or safety when seen through unbiased eyes. I'm sure you could also dissect the Q'uran for sins that make no sense (such as the commandment not to shave one's beard) because you don't feel compelled to defend the Q'uran. If you could bring that objectivity to dissecting the bible, you'd catch my drift.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-03-2013, 05:28 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(06-03-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:The morally deficient person says in his heart, “There is no God.”
And who says in his heart, "There is no God"...?
Quote:You're right... I had shrimp last week. SHRIMP!! Oh, I am a monster! How could I consume shrimp, the most evil of shellfish, in defiance of the word of our holy lord, the god of the mountains, javeh? Oh, and I am a curséd sinner! I am lost!!!!
Are you a Jew? Eat as you wish. Phaedrus, this is one of your more uninformed statements...

If you are going to assert that there was a Jewish law, then why would anything out of the old testament apply to anybody other than a Jew?

(07-03-2013 04:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I see. Romans 1 says... "Therefore, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper..."

If you read the quote in context it's clearly an anti-gay quote, equating homosexuality with evil.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.

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07-03-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 05:28 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  If you read the quote in context it's clearly an anti-gay quote, equating homosexuality with evil.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.

It's actually talking about temple prostitution.

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07-03-2013, 05:41 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 10:22 AM)EGross Wrote:  You are very correct. It is always cute when someone will take one sentence from an entire chapter to prove something that it never meant...

I just read your posts, and I hope you'll keep them coming. Rational thought is always very welcome here (especially to me!), no matter what religious view is behind it.

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07-03-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 05:35 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:28 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  If you read the quote in context it's clearly an anti-gay quote, equating homosexuality with evil.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.

It's actually talking about temple prostitution.
Thanks for the correction sir.

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07-03-2013, 05:50 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 05:43 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:35 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's actually talking about temple prostitution.
Thanks for the correction sir.
You're welcome. But your conclusion is easily understandable. The condemnation is hard to understand without the entire history of what was going on at the time.

I kind of wish all Bibles had a history section attached to each book to explain the circumstances of the writings.

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07-03-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
(07-03-2013 05:35 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:28 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  If you read the quote in context it's clearly an anti-gay quote, equating homosexuality with evil.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.

It's actually talking about temple prostitution.

I find that difficult to believe.

And by 'difficult' I mean impossible.

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08-03-2013, 12:24 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 12:32 AM by EGross.)
RE: Psalm 14:1 NIV Footnote
If you see the history of the time, it is not the prostitution of women, but the prostitution of faith. The Saducees had putchased the Kohanic power from the Romans and were in control. Think of it as secularists, for the most part, who seized an opportunity for power and more wealth. The zealots and biryanim had infiltrated Beit Shammai, and were the "right wing extremeists" of their day (except for the addition of murder and arson), the beit Shammai Pharisees, or simply pharisees as they are referred to, who hated the Saducees and what they had done. Beit Hillel was an impotent power by then. Many were murdered by the new Shammites, and those who survived submitted. The Talmud refers to that day when murder and threats were used to gain control of the Rabbinical power, it was equivilant to the day of the worship of the golden calf. And decades later, when a descendant of beit Hillel would start anew, it was declared that it would be the rulings of beit Shammai that would be rendered moot, then, and until the end of days.

There is a talmudic reference of a renown Rabbi who was listening to a student and teacher of the early Christians just before the fall of the temple, having a discussion about the immorality of the priesthood in that respect, and the Rabbi found it amusing due to it's chutzpah.

In a section that speaks of immorality in the Talmud, it brings up a story where the high priest (saducee), disgraced the ceremony of the bringing of the water, and so they, having green citrines, pummeled him into near unconsciousness until he submitted.

Yeah, between 6-69CE, that whole temple thing was a real mess. No real prostitutes, but biblical language often uses "zonah" (prostitute) to also refer to acts of unholiness, as in "you shall not prostitue yourself to [elohim acherim]" - which is idolotry, worshiping a creation as though it were a creator.

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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