Psychosomatic diseases?
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10-06-2012, 04:31 PM
Psychosomatic diseases?
Among the loose community of middle-aged adults with 'alternative views' there is a deep conviction that many serious diseases and health problems are of psychosomatic origin. They believe in a mechanism that links a particular set of behaviors with a particular bodily region. Certain experiences, events and behaviors will weaken that organ. In that part of body there already are or eventually will be the first bacterial or viral settlers, waiting to exploit this sudden weakness, to multiply, spread and soon produce a typical medically diagnosed disease.

From this point of view, a bacteria or a virus in the body is not a spark in a gunpowder keg. It is a constant natural presence, usually kept in check by the immunity system and strong healthy tissues. Therefore, it is not a cause of disease. It is a symptom. To treat diseases merely by destroying the infection is short-sighted at best, a medical scam at worst. It does not address the original cause. Such is the alternative opinion.

The medicinal doctors often make a mistake of treating their area of expertise and ignoring everything that comes before or after. For example, a woman I know with throat cancer went on irradiation therapy. But nobody told her that radiation kills bone marrow. The doctors released her and she developed a severe anemia, decalcification of bones and malnutrition, because the radiation destroyed her tastebuds and she was on infusion for months anyway.
The funny thing is, the cancer started spreading only after the doctors poked the first tumor for samples. Left alone, the body encapsulates the tumor and eventually destroys it. But no, doctors have to know, cut into it and release metastasing tumorous cells into the bloodstream. And scare the shit out of the person, with additional stress weakening the body even more. Really, I am convinced that what passes today for cancer treatment would fit into medieval ages right next to bloodletting and searing wounds by hot iron instead of sewing them.

But back to psychosomatic causes. Most cases of cancer I've ever heard of were preceded by a strong emotional trauma, stress or a deeply wrong life attitude. The above lady's case it was that she literally gave herself apart. She was raised in a foster family to serve, she wasn't permitted to study high school (though she remarkably educated herself later) and even now in high age she did everything for her family members, stuff like dropping everything to cook for her adult grandson and so on.

Really, there are as many cases and examples as there are patients. My like-minded people study them and make lists on which kinds of wrong behavior cause what kind of disease and where. So we might look at a person's diagnosis and infer what areas of his personal life are in shambles. Lactose intolerance? Fix your relationship with mother (see the symbolics?) and it will get better. Hay fever? Start saying aloud to others what really irks you. Problems with spine? Stop being such a damn workaholic high-performance manager, drop the work and do your hobby or what you wanted to do since childhood. Kidney failure? Go to your worst enemy (and I mean that awful slanderous hag from your job), talk to him (or her), go for a beer together, tell each other your mind and become friends. Otherwise you might lose that kidney. Hell, once even my witch doctor instantly spotted a link between a slight thyroid gland imbalance and doing a job I hated. Typical for mothers of newborns who must stay at home all the time and care for the baby.

Maybe I'm a superstitious pattern-seeking hairless ape, but it's the results that count. And I won't trust a doctor or an alternative medicine practitioner who does not care how the ailments came to existence. I'd like to make you guys look more critically at the scientific, quantifiable and measurable medicine, which you admire so much. It may be a step above the prayer to God, but seems to me it misses the main point or the true cause, if you get what I mean. You should, by now.

My primary explanation is the energetic network around the body, influencing nerve and endocrine (and immune) system. Its great centres (chakras) along the spine are instruments of thought and emotion, so there's a direct way to organ weakening and failure.
Another more prosaic explanation is based on neuropeptides, their kinds are countless and they're produced by the brain as a response to mental states. And they selectively influence the immune system, which is very sensitive to them. So certain kinds of thinking set up the immune system for failure in a certain ways in certain parts of the body.
Of course, no explanation is absolute. Many health problems are just a consequence of old age or toxins or eating like a pig, drinking like a sponge and smoking like a factory.
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10-06-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(10-06-2012 04:31 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Among the loose community of middle-aged adults with 'alternative views' there is a deep conviction that many serious diseases and health problems are of psychosomatic origin. They believe in a mechanism that links a particular set of behaviors with a particular bodily region. Certain experiences, events and behaviors will weaken that organ. In that part of body there already are or eventually will be the first bacterial or viral settlers, waiting to exploit this sudden weakness, to multiply, spread and soon produce a typical medically diagnosed disease.

From this point of view, a bacteria or a virus in the body is not a spark in a gunpowder keg. It is a constant natural presence, usually kept in check by the immunity system and strong healthy tissues. Therefore, it is not a cause of disease. It is a symptom. To treat diseases merely by destroying the infection is short-sighted at best, a medical scam at worst. It does not address the original cause. Such is the alternative opinion.

The medicinal doctors often make a mistake of treating their area of expertise and ignoring everything that comes before or after. For example, a woman I know with throat cancer went on irradiation therapy. But nobody told her that radiation kills bone marrow. The doctors released her and she developed a severe anemia, decalcification of bones and malnutrition, because the radiation destroyed her tastebuds and she was on infusion for months anyway.
The funny thing is, the cancer started spreading only after the doctors poked the first tumor for samples. Left alone, the body encapsulates the tumor and eventually destroys it. But no, doctors have to know, cut into it and release metastasing tumorous cells into the bloodstream. And scare the shit out of the person, with additional stress weakening the body even more. Really, I am convinced that what passes today for cancer treatment would fit into medieval ages right next to bloodletting and searing wounds by hot iron instead of sewing them.

But back to psychosomatic causes. Most cases of cancer I've ever heard of were preceded by a strong emotional trauma, stress or a deeply wrong life attitude. The above lady's case it was that she literally gave herself apart. She was raised in a foster family to serve, she wasn't permitted to study high school (though she remarkably educated herself later) and even now in high age she did everything for her family members, stuff like dropping everything to cook for her adult grandson and so on.

Really, there are as many cases and examples as there are patients. My like-minded people study them and make lists on which kinds of wrong behavior cause what kind of disease and where. So we might look at a person's diagnosis and infer what areas of his personal life are in shambles. Lactose intolerance? Fix your relationship with mother (see the symbolics?) and it will get better. Hay fever? Start saying aloud to others what really irks you. Problems with spine? Stop being such a damn workaholic high-performance manager, drop the work and do your hobby or what you wanted to do since childhood. Kidney failure? Go to your worst enemy (and I mean that awful slanderous hag from your job), talk to him (or her), go for a beer together, tell each other your mind and become friends. Otherwise you might lose that kidney. Hell, once even my witch doctor instantly spotted a link between a slight thyroid gland imbalance and doing a job I hated. Typical for mothers of newborns who must stay at home all the time and care for the baby.

Maybe I'm a superstitious pattern-seeking hairless ape, but it's the results that count. And I won't trust a doctor or an alternative medicine practitioner who does not care how the ailments came to existence. I'd like to make you guys look more critically at the scientific, quantifiable and measurable medicine, which you admire so much. It may be a step above the prayer to God, but seems to me it misses the main point or the true cause, if you get what I mean. You should, by now.

My primary explanation is the energetic network around the body, influencing nerve and endocrine (and immune) system. Its great centres (chakras) along the spine are instruments of thought and emotion, so there's a direct way to organ weakening and failure.
Another more prosaic explanation is based on neuropeptides, their kinds are countless and they're produced by the brain as a response to mental states. And they selectively influence the immune system, which is very sensitive to them. So certain kinds of thinking set up the immune system for failure in a certain ways in certain parts of the body.
Of course, no explanation is absolute. Many health problems are just a consequence of old age or toxins or eating like a pig, drinking like a sponge and smoking like a factory.



Well, that was a lot of new age stuff with no basis in science.



For instance, my brother-in-law just died of bowel cancer. He was otherwise healthy, happy, exercised, ate well, had 3 children and 6 grandchildren he loved dearly. He didn't bring on the bowel cancer.



As for lactose intolerance, that is a matter of a gene that switches off the production of lactase (necessary to metabolize lactose) in early childhood. Most adults are lactose intolerant, except in populations descended from herding societies. In those societies, the ability to metabolize milk would be an advantage and therefore a mutation that allowed lactase production into adulthood would be selected for. It has nothing to do with your relationship with your mother or your chakras.

Really, Luminon, you need to learn some science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2012, 06:15 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
I call bullshit.

I didn't cause my breast cancer, but I damn sure did my research and found a doctor whose method is minimal treatment. If I were to bring on any disease it would be lung cancer...and I would deserve it after decades of smoking, but my lungs are fine.

Wednesday I go see her again for the bloodwork I have done every six months and the annual chest x-ray.

Have there been some complications along the way...yes. But I didn't cause Leukemia to myself to agreeing to treatment the first doctor wanted me to do...that chemo website even says it causes Leukemia in some people and when they cause it they can't fix it. My doctor is also not interested in tons of scans and x-rays cause they aren't good for you.

I was severely anemic after surgery but she didn't want to do a transfusion, she wanted to find out if my bone marrow was working correctly so I took Iron and B vitamins and was quickly on track.

The meds they wanted me on for nerve damage done to my shoulders during surgery only wiped me out and didn't heal shit. It has improved due to massage and I stopped the meds...my oncologist was thrilled that I took charge and figured out what worked for me. I still have flairups and probably always will.

Doctors aren't gods...you have to take responsibility for your treatment. Research, ask questions, stay rational, keep the fear at bay and do what you think is right for you.

I have known several people that only got worse due to chemo and radiation...if I was going to die it was going to be from the disease and not "the cure".

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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10-06-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(10-06-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, that was a lot of new age stuff with no basis in science.

For instance, my brother-in-law just died of bowel cancer. He was otherwise healthy, happy, exercised, ate well, had 3 children and 6 grandchildren he loved dearly. He didn't bring on the bowel cancer.

As for lactose intolerance, that is a matter of a gene that switches off the production of lactase (necessary to metabolize lactose) in early childhood. Most adults are lactose intolerant, except in populations descended from herding societies. In those societies, the ability to metabolize milk would be an advantage and therefore a mutation that allowed lactase production into adulthood would be selected for. It has nothing to do with your relationship with your mother or your chakras.
Really, Luminon, you need to learn some science.

While I agree that stress and attitude can have an effect, and is essential in treatment of a majority of conditions, a person's health and well being is usually the combined result of physical stimulus happening in the body. I don't agree that any particular emotional shit itself has much to do with the actual inception of poor health. Physical ailment is probably going to be the result of a physical stimulus -if at all, emotional shit might just be another byproduct reaction of the same physical stimulus and maybe they just coincide. But whoopee. Undecided

For instance; laughter itself is fine because it makes one happy. Ok, but why? Something is funny yes, but also when we laugh, the diaphragm is massaged releasing a greater amount of endorphins. Endorphins medicate, hence euphoria. Laughat
However, the same thing happens when we are horrendously sad and great heaving sobs massage the diaphragm; endorphins are released... and don't we all feel better after a good cry? Sadcryface2
In the first event, happiness released the endorphins, while sadness also released endorphins... I can think of a bunch of other activities which will do the exactly the same thing; everything from sex to running, to getting punched in the nose. Physical stimulus releases endorphins but not because you're happy or sad or pissed off -that's just what the body does.

I have personally experienced pressure point therapy -it uses the same points on the body that acupuncture does but no needles, just very firm pressure. This is an interesting field which merits further exploration because it does work on physically stimulating the system of nerves which encase the body, something we know relatively little about it. That's about as far as I will go into alternative medicine.

"Treatments" which prey on the emotional state of someone trying to survive a serious ailment ... need to kind of just fuck off. That's not alternative medicine or even medical exploration - that's just inconsiderate meddling into an ailing person's psyche.
******

Sorry to hear about your bro-in-law, Chas. It's almost as if we get closer to a cure each year, but all we really seem to manage is making people comfortable when they die of it; cancer is a wicked thing.
Heart I hope you and you're family are able to take it easy for the Summer.
Eat well and keep healthy.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-06-2012, 06:36 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
The germ theory of disease is well-supported Smile

What predictions does your new hypothesis make that differ from germ theory, and how do you propose to test these predictions to determine which is true?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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10-06-2012, 07:03 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
Wow Anjele - I had no idea you'd gone through so much!
So many just let the doctor take all the responsibility, and then wonder why they end up at the mercy of a doctor who really doesn't understand their needs.
It's great that you took charge of your options, you sound like you are on track with your treatment. Thumbsup

Heart Stay well.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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11-06-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(10-06-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, that was a lot of new age stuff with no basis in science.

For instance, my brother-in-law just died of bowel cancer. He was otherwise healthy, happy, exercised, ate well, had 3 children and 6 grandchildren he loved dearly. He didn't bring on the bowel cancer.
Just to be sure, I don't say disease is a punishment for our sins or bad character. Get that out of your mind.
I'm not sure what the significance of a colon cancer is. It's too late to ask, but first I'd ask if your brother-in-law had any conflicts with other people and what kind. Did he find it hard to forgive others who wronged him? Was it diffcult of him to let go, if not emotional grudges then material things in particular? That would fit better if it was a cancer of lower colon and the ending. The Scorpio body region.

Anyway, that's the idea. Find out what's is the medical patient's emotional / behavioral problem, try to work on fixing that and see if the disease gets better or not.

(10-06-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  As for lactose intolerance, that is a matter of a gene that switches off the production of lactase (necessary to metabolize lactose) in early childhood. Most adults are lactose intolerant, except in populations descended from herding societies. In those societies, the ability to metabolize milk would be an advantage and therefore a mutation that allowed lactase production into adulthood would be selected for. It has nothing to do with your relationship with your mother or your chakras.

Really, Luminon, you need to learn some science.
Yeah, I know, the blood types. My countryman discovered them. The hunter-gatherer descendants have 0 blood type and they invented the starch-free meat diets. A type of former nomads is good at processing milk, B type of farmer ancestors is good at processing wheat. (or was it opposite?) And perhaps the AB type is best adapted to urban life and cheeseburgers.

Perhaps instead of lactose intolerance I meant lactose allergy. Not a problem of processing, but immunity response. And allergies are very psychosomatic. Anyway, that archetype of lactose problems vs. relationship with mother had to come from somewhere. It wasn't invented by The Big Bang Theory screenplay writers, but maybe they picked it up. (the Leonard Hofstadter character)

(10-06-2012 06:15 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I call bullshit.

I didn't cause my breast cancer, but I damn sure did my research and found a doctor whose method is minimal treatment. If I were to bring on any disease it would be lung cancer...and I would deserve it after decades of smoking, but my lungs are fine.
So it means you don't do certain kind of behavior that would weaken your lungs and make them succumb to the smoking. But maybe you do something else. I really can't tell what, you list only biologic factors. This is not about biology, it's about emotions and relationships and attitudes to yourself, others and everything.

My grandma died on breast cancer when my dad was in his teens. She was not a pleasant person. She was always whining, complaining and trying to manipulate everyone. Nothing was ever good for her and she was always in bad mood. She also made the family attend church (in case of my uncle very forcefully) to look good in front of neighbours, to ascend in pecking order towards the pulpit.
When she got the breast cancer, it shocked her to the core. She really changed her ways and stopped being so moody and judgemental and manipulative. What followed was almost a miraculous cancer remission. So my granma was released home and thanked Jesus for the miracle. But. Miracle? Jesus? What a wonderful story to tell at the church! What a wonderful way to show off and be better than others! It didn't take long for her to fall back into her old ways. After that, it didn't take long for the cancer to return and kill her quickly. No second chances this time.

From esoteric point of view, the cancer was a lesson and it would go away if the lesson was learned. I suspect many of the "miraculous" cures are like that. Do not take it literally, please. You are probably much nicer person than my late grandma was. But we are emotional beings and we get things wrong sometimes. The lady from my example above with a throat cancer was almost a saint, but she does not value herself enough and that is her problem.

(10-06-2012 06:15 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Doctors aren't gods...you have to take responsibility for your treatment. Research, ask questions, stay rational, keep the fear at bay and do what you think is right for you.

I have known several people that only got worse due to chemo and radiation...if I was going to die it was going to be from the disease and not "the cure".
I see you understand the responsibility for your health. Betting your life on someone's routine day job is not safe. I just really want to point out that you seem to focus on biologic principles only, but emotions and attitudes may harm us worse. Just look, you smoked for many years and yet you don't have lung cancer. You had a breast cancer instead, which is in my book associated with emotional conflicts of some kind. My guess is that some other principle is here at play, not just "smoking equals lung cancer".


(10-06-2012 06:34 PM)kim Wrote:  "Treatments" which prey on the emotional state of someone trying to survive a serious ailment ... need to kind of just fuck off. That's not alternative medicine or even medical exploration - that's just inconsiderate meddling into an ailing person's psyche.
I agree, emotional state is just a sign and not a cure. Healers should examine the person's behavior, habits, attitudes, opinions and relationships, that produce the undesirable and harmful emotion. If there will be any well-being, it should come from realization of wrong models and overcoming them.

(10-06-2012 06:36 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  The germ theory of disease is well-supported Smile

What predictions does your new hypothesis make that differ from germ theory, and how do you propose to test these predictions to determine which is true?
As I said, most of germs may be taken as a permanent natural presence. (except for HIV) The true cause of a disease is weakening of a particular organ or a bodily area, often caused by emotional factors. Something we do or don't do may cause us a great stress, even if we're not aware of it or used to it. This stress is localized in a body according to an unknown principle, as yet.

There are two ways of testing, basically. Let's take already existing medical cases. Let the witch doctors make a hypothesis what kind of problems would such patients have. Let independent psychologists make an inquiry. Compare the results.
Alternatively, the shamen should work with the patients directly, identify the problematic behavior and make a goal of overcoming it. The patients then would report both how much progress they made and how their health diagnosis changed. Also, a subjective estimation of a personal quality of life before and after would also help.

Which reminds me, in my country lives one MUDr. Vogeltanz. For many years his job was to tear inflammed tonsils out of young people's throats. Over time he noticed that every time he asked, the patients seemed to be under some pressure, stress or manipulation, usually from the side of parents. Things were shoved down their throats. The tonsils reacted with protest and the doctor's job was to remove them. And the problem remained unsolved and probably caused some other health problem some other time, for some other doctor. Dr. Vogeltanz was horrified by this medicinal practice and after receiving only misunderstanding and mockery from his colleagues, he stopped doctoring. He then invented ethicotherapy, the therapy by right behavior. I don't say this method is perfect (it lacks some deeper esoteric knowledge, like the principle of reincarnation) but I had read his book and I must agree.
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11-06-2012, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2012 02:30 PM by morondog.)
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
This is dangerous stuff. Medical science is exactly where new age / religious / crap science is not needed. We have a method that works. There have been studies done on the claims made by new agey types and they're all full of shit.

Look, it's very simple: does the treatment work? It's very easy to check: Do a study. Control for placebo effect. Also not only does it work? But is it better or worse than the currently used treatment? How do woo based treatments for cancer compare with chemo in terms of survival rates hmm?

As Dr Ben Goldacre says in his book bad science: there is really no such thing as alternative medicine. If it works it becomes part of mainstream medicine. If not, it's relegated to the fringes, where arseholes can use it to make money off gullible people.

Sorry Luminon. This is one of those issues where I will not meet people halfway. You can believe what the hell you like, but *back this one up* if you're gonna make a claim that it works in general. And not with post hoc explanations of why this particular treatment doesn't work in this specific situation either. Gimme studies done.

Edit: Actually it's pointless giving me studies done since I know that a variety of bullshit studies have been done (source: B Goldacre Esq), and I am not qualified to judge anyway if you do point me to one whether or not it's crap. I would be obliged if you'd answer my point about mainstream medicine absorbing treatments if they actually work though.
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11-06-2012, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2012 06:23 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
Your grandmother got scared and straightened up her act out of fear...she didn't get breast cancer cause she was a miserable person.

And as you stated...with and without breast cancer she wasn't a nice person...or are you trying to say that cancer is God's punishment for some infraction?

Whatever...while attitude can help get you through an illness, even a crap attitude doesn't cause cancer.

I still say bullshit.

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11-06-2012, 07:42 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361287/


It's pretty clear....it's BS. If not, show me the money, empirically.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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