Psychosomatic diseases?
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11-06-2012, 10:22 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
Clear as mud, Buckster...

Quote: Though the results of the meta-analysis were not encouraging on the first point, many of these studies suffered from methodological limitations. We hope that these results will inform investigations that go beyond the relationship between a stressful event and an immune parameter to investigate the psychological phenomena that mediate that relationship.
I think there's a bunch of the jumping on the Lumi for the wrong reasons happening here. It ain't an either/or sitch, it ain't a case of taking time away from legitimate research, it's a case of more study is needed. I've long felt that one of the hidden benefits of artificial intelligence will be the validation of, for lack of a better word, witchcraft. Cause it ain't as straightforward as casting spells and brewing potions, its something of an harmonic balance. It ain't putting your finger on the scales and making a bunch of woo happen, it's more like taking two grains of sand from one pile and putting it on the other.

And peeps should drop the persecution complex. It ain't about shit happening cause you got a bad attitude, or being all Hulk because you're a happy hippie. It's more about language that ain't been invented yet.

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11-06-2012, 11:59 PM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
Then there's
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3271092/ from the same site, with...

Quote: Given that there is considerable evidence linking psychological stress with immune dysregulation [13], it is conceivable to propose that psychological intervention, especially one that is targeted at stress reduction, will alleviate stress-related immune dysregulation.
...which links to...

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/con...4/364.long


My bias getting confirmed, here, Bucky. Who's side you on? Big Grin

My thing is that I hate doctors, hate the "worship of health," hate Big Pharma... yada, yada... then, oc, there's the dang Gwynnies...

...and this guy...

Quote: Look, it's very simple: does the treatment work? It's very easy to check: Do a study. Control for placebo effect.
Me an' the dog see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this... you even read what you write, you big silly? Placebo effect. What's that all about, huh? Tongue

Did I mention the dang Gwynnies? Cause I don't wanna live forever, heck, most of the time, I don't wanna live tomorrow; and it ain't because I'm emo, more like that I just don't feel human. It's that perspective, gets me jumping on this thread. Dog's like, don't wanna see nobody waste no scratch on some new age bullshit, and I agree, but how much crap Big Pharma push down the public's throat, wrapped in "legitimacy?" I got a problem, I take aspirin. If it's a serious problem, I take aspirin and some Gwynnies. Big Grin

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12-06-2012, 12:27 AM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 11:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Me an' the dog see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this... you even read what you write, you big silly? Placebo effect. What's that all about, huh? Tongue
Placebo effect works whether you attribute it to friendly Martians, your special relationship with your Gwynnies, or psychological factors. So you can't call it positive evidence for the effectiveness of a particular treatment Smile

Not saying there's no such thing as psychosomatic factors in disease, but this guff about *cancer*, a disease with well known physical, observable effects, having mental shit as a root cause? Bullshit.
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12-06-2012, 12:52 AM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(12-06-2012 12:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-06-2012 11:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Me an' the dog see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this... you even read what you write, you big silly? Placebo effect. What's that all about, huh? Tongue
Placebo effect works whether you attribute it to friendly Martians, your special relationship with your Gwynnies...

My Gwynnies! See? I feel better already. Big Grin
But it is people getting a pill for their ills, and it's just the thought of the benefit being beneficial.

(12-06-2012 12:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  Not saying there's no such thing as psychosomatic factors in disease, but this guff about *cancer*, a disease with well known physical, observable effects, having mental shit as a root cause? Bullshit.

I'm not so certain. There's been cancer since there's been people, so it ain't just from Mickey D's and Camels. Know what else there's been since there's been people? Fear of death and thoughts of immortality. And that's the problem with cancer. Cells that don't know when to die. But like I say, I got bias, and this is an atheist forum with a buncha my homies, it ain't peer review. If it was, it'd be like - Lumi? You again? Before he opened his mouth, it'd be - rejected. Big Grin

Oregonism or whatever the fuck he was going on about that time... in the scientific community, it's one strike, and yer out. Tongue

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12-06-2012, 04:48 AM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 02:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(10-06-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, that was a lot of new age stuff with no basis in science.

For instance, my brother-in-law just died of bowel cancer. He was otherwise healthy, happy, exercised, ate well, had 3 children and 6 grandchildren he loved dearly. He didn't bring on the bowel cancer.
Just to be sure, I don't say disease is a punishment for our sins or bad character. Get that out of your mind.
I'm not sure what the significance of a colon cancer is. It's too late to ask, but first I'd ask if your brother-in-law had any conflicts with other people and what kind. Did he find it hard to forgive others who wronged him? Was it diffcult of him to let go, if not emotional grudges then material things in particular? That would fit better if it was a cancer of lower colon and the ending. The Scorpio body region.

Anyway, that's the idea. Find out what's is the medical patient's emotional / behavioral problem, try to work on fixing that and see if the disease gets better or not.

(10-06-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  As for lactose intolerance, that is a matter of a gene that switches off the production of lactase (necessary to metabolize lactose) in early childhood. Most adults are lactose intolerant, except in populations descended from herding societies. In those societies, the ability to metabolize milk would be an advantage and therefore a mutation that allowed lactase production into adulthood would be selected for. It has nothing to do with your relationship with your mother or your chakras.

Really, Luminon, you need to learn some science.
Yeah, I know, the blood types. My countryman discovered them. The hunter-gatherer descendants have 0 blood type and they invented the starch-free meat diets. A type of former nomads is good at processing milk, B type of farmer ancestors is good at processing wheat. (or was it opposite?) And perhaps the AB type is best adapted to urban life and cheeseburgers.

Perhaps instead of lactose intolerance I meant lactose allergy. Not a problem of processing, but immunity response. And allergies are very psychosomatic. Anyway, that archetype of lactose problems vs. relationship with mother had to come from somewhere. It wasn't invented by The Big Bang Theory screenplay writers, but maybe they picked it up. (the Leonard Hofstadter character)
It has nothing to do with blood types. Jesus H Fucking Christ, Luminon; seriously, man, learn some real science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-06-2012, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2012 03:01 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 02:24 PM)morondog Wrote:  This is dangerous stuff. Medical science is exactly where new age / religious / crap science is not needed. We have a method that works. There have been studies done on the claims made by new agey types and they're all full of shit.

Look, it's very simple: does the treatment work? It's very easy to check: Do a study. Control for placebo effect. Also not only does it work? But is it better or worse than the currently used treatment? How do woo based treatments for cancer compare with chemo in terms of survival rates hmm?

As Dr Ben Goldacre says in his book bad science: there is really no such thing as alternative medicine. If it works it becomes part of mainstream medicine. If not, it's relegated to the fringes, where arseholes can use it to make money off gullible people.
Unfortunately, this is not true. See below, at least in my country the estabilishment is too conservative and rigid, compared to other countries. Yet there is a great people's interest in such approach, apparent from widespread alternative medicine. This results in equilibrium, people get their needs from grey economy (and part of them gets scammed) and the doctors and politicians don't have to change anything except rising prices.

(11-06-2012 02:24 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry Luminon. This is one of those issues where I will not meet people halfway. You can believe what the hell you like, but *back this one up* if you're gonna make a claim that it works in general. And not with post hoc explanations of why this particular treatment doesn't work in this specific situation either. Gimme studies done.

Edit: Actually it's pointless giving me studies done since I know that a variety of bullshit studies have been done (source: B Goldacre Esq), and I am not qualified to judge anyway if you do point me to one whether or not it's crap. I would be obliged if you'd answer my point about mainstream medicine absorbing treatments if they actually work though.
I think your rational zeal is wasted here. This is not propagation of woo or refusing a medical treatment. This is more about study of psychologic causes of disease and its prevention. The goal is not removing a germ, tumor or an organ, but the attitude that caused it all. Also, alternative medicine knows things like that diseases as various as acne or varicose ulcer may be caused by one thing - weak function of kidneys. So instead of corticoid ointments and surgery you get vitamine A and kidney tea. I miss that complex awareness in classical medicine.

I searched around a little. There seem to be multiple studies showing link between holding back negative emotions and breast cancer. One more study on that.
As for applying this principle in general, I don't know yet. I don't know if there are any studies. But theoretically it should be possible to take a person's medical folder and re-write it into a curriculum vitae. The basic guidelines say things like that liver is linked with anger, kidneys with social relationships and spine with workaholism and responsibility.

The bio-psycho-social model of a disease was accepted in 1977 by WHO.
The science knows stomach ulcers from stress. But the same stress may cause vertigo, asthma, eczema or a bad auto-immune disease. Somatizing patients are neglected by the system, called liars or labelled as hypochonders. In my country there is only one such private clinic (psychosomatika.cz) with proper chamber-registered doctors, psychiatrists and contracts with insurance companies. They work according to the 1977 modelof dr. George L. Engel, American doctor and psychiatrist.

However, authorities are just not interested. Six years ago the founders of the clinic went to Ministry of healthcare, Public health insurance company, Medical chamber and Czech medical society JEP with their offer of a wholesome approach to patients. No response. Only last year the psychosomatics made it to the university in Brno (second largest city), one course on one cathedra, which almost didn't fit into the timetable because of all the medical curriculum. Psychosomatic medicine is a whole complex subject, it can't develop in shadow of biologic medicine.

In Germany the psychosomatic medicine is one of basic atestation courses for 25 years, it's supported by the medical society and the law defines it as a part of healthcare. I think this time science already was here, but the political will didn't follow and you can only go so far without the state support. Now, I'd say the question is how and how much, not if the psychosomatic factors work.
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13-06-2012, 04:54 AM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 06:19 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Your grandmother got scared and straightened up her act out of fear...she didn't get breast cancer cause she was a miserable person.

And as you stated...with and without breast cancer she wasn't a nice person...or are you trying to say that cancer is God's punishment for some infraction?

Whatever...while attitude can help get you through an illness, even a crap attitude doesn't cause cancer.

I still say bullshit.
Do I think it's God's punishment for some infraction? Let's say my private and public opinion differs and I don't exactly believe in God as we know him. Anyway, breast cancer seems to have a link with the bad emotions we have, hold within and don't express enough.
Whether that makes us a bad company for others or not, or if we'd look good or bad in eyes of others, that has nothing to do with it. This is not about guilt, but how you manage the very real emotional forces. I am only sure that my grandmother's cancer developed according to her her emotional state, as observed on her behavior.
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13-06-2012, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2012 06:43 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 11:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Bucky. Who's side you on?
Thing is, Bucky don' really got no dog here. Both sides have partial, maybe one more pixels. We know exactly how many disease states occur. A+ immune state don' make no never mind.
Back in arrogant day, had this SAME discussion with auntie, who was wise, 100 % happy, had everything .. the day before she went to have surgery ... > Pancreatic Cancer > no treatment chosen > fast quality end. NO amount of happy talk would have changed that. Nagasaki happened.
However, I know, that if I don' workout (x2) eat, and laugh today, will have cold before two days. Sure as shootin'. Not had cold for longer than can remember. So .. ya pays yer money, and takes yer chance. Guided imagery etc, more endorphins, meditation, all good, many ways to get there. Come a time, when ya need some Amoxacillin. Good ta have the mall.

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13-06-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
I'm more on Lumi's side. I have nominated him to do my woo-like thinking for me so I don't have to; that way I can make pretend I'm all rational and shit. Big Grin

We all know that science doesn't have all the answers. Where there is some disagreement is where science should start asking questions.

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13-06-2012, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2012 08:26 AM by kim.)
RE: Psychosomatic diseases?
(11-06-2012 11:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Then there's
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3271092/ from the same site, with...

Quote: Given that there is considerable evidence linking psychological stress with immune dysregulation [13], it is conceivable to propose that psychological intervention, especially one that is targeted at stress reduction, will alleviate stress-related immune dysregulation.
...which links to...

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/con...4/364.long

Oh- I concur and will never deny that stress most certainly has an effect on the immune system... I'd stake my entire proactive healthy lifestyle on it! Big Pharma can definitely blow me.

However, I scanned both of those links...and found nary a chakra betwixt them.
Nor was there mention of The Scorpio body region... whatever the fuck that is. Dodgy
I was also unable to find where it explained how, if someone found it hard to forgive another who wronged him, or if it was difficult for him to let go of either emotional grudges or material things in particular... how that would fit better if the ailment was a cancer of lower colon.

Sorry, and maybe I am missing some technical terms in translation so, if it makes one happy to have the operating room full of balloons during a surgery, by all means do it. If the operation is successful I'll be more than willing to say, "Hey, those balloons sure helped lighten the load." No harm, no foul.

But if the patient dies, are you willing to negate follow up research by saying, "Well, this guy was just unable to forgive his wife for flirting." In that reality, we all know the real reason the patient dies: it's the will of the bBalloons. No

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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