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Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
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29-07-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(29-07-2013 06:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Recognition of racism and racist actions, must happen before a constructive conversation can begin. I think that first and most necessary step for a racist to realize their racism.

Wait....

Do you or do you not make a distinction between racial prejudiced and/or racial discrimination and racism?

Behaving irrationally is behaving irrationally, and yes it is good to get people to realize that they behave irrationally and to be introspective. I've said that previously.

The terms I've been using are more accurate in describing the behavior that needs altering, less offensive and demeaning to people and more helpful with regard to having a meaningful discussing.

You seemed to be stuck on the term. Why?

It is, "Hey, stop being racist", versus, "Hey, recognize your biases, stop discriminating, stop stereotyping, stop generalizing, stop being prejudice, and so on.

If someone doesn't see themselves as subscribing to an ideology that holds them as part of a different subset of human beings, comparing themselves to others, deeming themselves, in whatever regard, different or superior, I just don't see a need in calling them racist.

I'm on an atheist forum for a reason, and I don't hate Christians. Having someone exclaim that I hated Christians, wouldn't magically make me love Jesus. You can describe, alter and address the problematic behaviors and thoughts, without slapping on a label irrationally.

If only the debate were over what racism is, but that's not the societal problem needing addressed.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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29-07-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(29-07-2013 06:30 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Que? Are you saying that motive is irrelevant, because I'm pretty sure a court of law would disagree. In fact they have these things, they call them 'hate crimes' or something like that.

The motivation of actions, in my view, would imply that it was coming from an ideology/thought process. With hate crimes, it's mainly if race was a factor in your decision making, applying the legal standard of responsibility.

But, most people don't readily admit to being racist. Members of the KKK probably don't even consider themselves racist. It's just not cool to be considered or to consider yourself racist anymore.

Historically, not to long ago, it really wasn't a problem being upfront about being racist, but now you really are not going to get many people, if anyone, to admit to it, with any amount of interrogation.

The way I view racism, you are not going to show it, in any substantial way, as a motivation or ideology attributable to a person. It's like with theism: you can accept that someone is a theist if they explicitly express the acceptance of some notion of a deity. If they claim that they don't but still partake in otherwise ritualistic and irrational customs, focus on those irrationalities, not on getting them to admit to theism. If they cut a kids head off and roll it down some steps, focus on convincing them about how bad of an idea that is, and not on whether or not they are doing it for a god, if they say they are just doing it for pleasure.

This isn't an AA meeting, but if it were: alcohol is the problem, I could care less if you considered yourself an alcoholic.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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29-07-2013, 07:48 PM
Re: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
Racism is a belief based upon a prejudice based on skin color and ethnicity. But racism and racial discrimination can also be actions. Such as segregating schools and public works under the notion of "separate but equal." The action, irregardless of the intent, can still be racist.

I'm calling the action racist, that does other necessarily mean I am calling the actor racist. This may be the hang-up you are on.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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30-07-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(29-07-2013 07:48 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Racism is a belief based upon a prejudice based on skin color and ethnicity. But racism and racial discrimination can also be actions. Such as segregating schools and public works under the notion of "separate but equal." The action, irregardless of the intent, can still be racist.

I'm calling the action racist, that does other necessarily mean I am calling the actor racist. This may be the hang-up you are on.

It wouldn't matter. You might not think you are calling someone racist, but that doesn't affect how they interpret your use of the term or how it bothers them and how it ultimately interferes with a conversation.

Today there is evidence for segregation, separation, whatever. You can look at communities today and ask why people of a lighter color skin are here in good communities and people with darker skin disproportionally in communities with extremely poor living conditions, and then you can ask if any thing substantial can be done about it.

People are not going to agree on the meaning of 'racism' and whether or not it applies, and they are also going to get offended by it being used to describe a situation where they are involved, in one way or the other.

If you listen to some Tea party group members or similar types (those who call themselves conservatives) you will hear them calling blacks racist, saying blacks are the most racist, divisive, etc. It doesn't help, and it doesn't add any thing. It's like using the term socialist, when someone is trying to discuss economic polices-- the discussion is supposed to be on the polices, not the various ideologies, i.e., focus on the substance, not the label, especially when the label tends to end discussions.

If you want to have a conversation about racism, go ahead and use the term; however, if you want to have conversation about solving problems, focus on the problems. Focus on your car having been stolen and getting your car back, not on calling the person who stole it a thief or on calling the situation thievery.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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30-07-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
Racism is the problem.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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31-07-2013, 08:03 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(30-07-2013 10:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Racism is the problem.

With regard to what is racism the problem? Racism is a problem when looking at racism, but how are you seeing racism as an overall problem in society?

Especially, regarding my problem, which is that I think there are more specific, direct terms and more general terms that are more applicable and helpful.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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31-07-2013, 08:13 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 08:03 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  With regard to what is racism the problem? Racism is a problem when looking at racism, but how are you seeing racism as an overall problem in society?

Because inequality is detrimental to society. For instance, one can easily pinpoint a prime racial element in the massive wealth gaps in the United States. Even though the transition to wealth isn't exactly smooth for white individuals, minorities are even worse. It only fosters civil unrest.

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31-07-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 08:03 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Racism is the problem.

With regard to what is racism the problem? Racism is a problem when looking at racism, but how are you seeing racism as an overall problem in society?

Especially, regarding my problem, which is that I think there are more specific, direct terms and more general terms that are more applicable and helpful.

Racism is a subset of the problems you outline that is a carryover from segregation and the notions of "separate but equal."

But has taken a new form in recent years where people who are not discriminated against, find a way to claim discrimination because of their race. I say this too is a form of racism.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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31-07-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 08:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Because inequality is detrimental to society. For instance, one can easily pinpoint a prime racial element in the massive wealth gaps in the United States. Even though the transition to wealth isn't exactly smooth for white individuals, minorities are even worse. It only fosters civil unrest.

That's inequality, not racism. You could have racism without inequality or inequality without racism.

Racism is a justification. You have a good argument, looking at history, if you wanted to say that racism played a role in the inequality, but now that the inequality is there, that's an economic problem. Regardless, the inequality would be an socioeconomic problem, not one with racism, specifically.

The thing is that people on the right can make the same argument to keep the system exactly the same, as they would make in a society, where everyone looked similar. Calling them racist or the created situation racist, doesn't help with the economic argument--a good argument is a good argument and bullshit is bullshit.

You also have to look at the fact that racism might be a less applicable term, if even applicable at all. There is bias, prejudice and discrimination going on. It can be described as cultural as well. Race could be sports teams, neighborhoods or schools. You would have to stretch the concept of race in there, especially racism, in a way that could be perpetuating.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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31-07-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 08:45 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Racism is a subset of the problems you outline that is a carryover from segregation and the notions of "separate but equal."

But has taken a new form in recent years where people who are not discriminated against, find a way to claim discrimination because of their race. I say this too is a form of racism.

I think you should stop using the word 'race' in a way that could possibly imply that it has merit or isn't irrational, obsolete and for lack of a better term.

But, you really can't take the people who make those types of reverse discrimination, reverse racism, and other types of nonsensical arguments, seriously.

I hear those arguments mostly used for political reasons. They hate the "elite liberals" more than "welfare queens". You can perpetuate the idea of race in people's thoughts, who would otherwise not even have that strong of a concept, generalizing and use stereotypes and cultural realities to your political advantage.

That's an ignorance problem, not a racism problem. It can effectively become something similar to racism, not explicitly expressed, but labeling it racism doesn't help, which was my point. It's just ignorance-- you have people with absolutely no clue as to what is happening in certain communities and land-of-the-lost economic views, trying to tell you about problems and solutions.

The just don't know what the fuck they are talking about. You have some higher up creating some propaganda and then it getting spread around and adopted by whomever picks up on it.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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