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Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
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31-07-2013, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 10:00 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
Let me put it this way, my father-in-law preaches this rhetoric and vehemently denies it being based on race. But in the same breath, will talk about how racist Michelle Obama is.

I think you are trying to make the same argument Muffs was about racism only being a belief system and an action only being racist if the intentions were racist. I think this far too simplistic and naive.

Someone who wants to use race as a factor, will not outright say it or admit it. So, their discrimination would not be able to be called racist. I call bullshit.

The second point is that an action can be racist, even if unintended to be. In the same way that comments can be made that are racist, but are not intended to be. Kids make this mistake all the time by saying something racist because they heard it somewhere, and did not mean it as a racist comment. It still was though.

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31-07-2013, 09:37 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 09:23 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  That's inequality, not racism. You could have racism without inequality or inequality without racism.

A major problem is racial inequality. It is racism. Whether or not that underlying racism births economic issues is irrelevant to the fact.

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31-07-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
I'd simply go a step further and say that the social inequality and prejudice that exists is racist because it is still a direct carryover of racism from the 50's and 60's. The people who fought on both sides of that aren't dead yet and too many of the people in places that are still highly one race, have had no real interaction with other ethnicities, furthering the issue. And politicians are, in some cases, not any better than the average backwards Joe.

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31-07-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 09:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let me put it this way, my father-in-law preaches this rhetoric and vehemently denies it being based on race. But in the same breath, will talk about how racist Michelle Obama is.

I think you are trying to make the same argument Muffs was about racism only being a belief system and an action only being racist if the intentions were racist. I think this far too simplistic and naive.

Someone who wants to use race as a factor, will not outright say it or admit it. So, their discrimination would not be able to be called racist. I call bullshit.

The second point is that an action can be racist, even if unintended to be. In the same way that comments can be made that are racist, but are not intended to be. Kids make this mistake all the time by saying something racist because they heard it somewhere, and did not mean it as a racist comment. It still was though.

Well, my view of racism would be a lot more complex and reasonable. Some people might try to say something similar to what I might argue as being racism to be simplistic and naive or to find and out in a conversation, but I wasn't really concerning myself with how I, specifically, define racism, so that is irrelevant.

"Fucking nigger", could be seen as a racist comment because of the historical significance of racism, yes. As far as an action, there would have to be some connection to people who could be considered racist, as far as I can tell (maybe you could provide an example of something you had in mind). If some people just happened to live in Africa and others just happened to live in Europe, I don't see any reasonableness, at all, in the application of racism. With segregation in America, however, it could be the effect of racist feelings and thoughts prevalent in society, not happenstance.

You can label any thing, or any person, you want as racist. I'm questioning that with regard to having a meaningful conversation and addressing problems.

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31-07-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 09:37 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A major problem is racial inequality. It is racism. Whether or not that underlying racism births economic issues is irrelevant to the fact.

If by racial inequality you mean poor "blacks" and prosperous "whites", that's just, simply inequality, and that is social and economic.

If you mean bias, discrimination and prejudice in society, then that is that.

If calling it racism is a win for you, go ahead.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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31-07-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 10:27 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 09:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let me put it this way, my father-in-law preaches this rhetoric and vehemently denies it being based on race. But in the same breath, will talk about how racist Michelle Obama is.

I think you are trying to make the same argument Muffs was about racism only being a belief system and an action only being racist if the intentions were racist. I think this far too simplistic and naive.

Someone who wants to use race as a factor, will not outright say it or admit it. So, their discrimination would not be able to be called racist. I call bullshit.

The second point is that an action can be racist, even if unintended to be. In the same way that comments can be made that are racist, but are not intended to be. Kids make this mistake all the time by saying something racist because they heard it somewhere, and did not mean it as a racist comment. It still was though.

Well, my view of racism would be a lot more complex and reasonable. Some people might try to say something similar to what I might argue as being racism to be simplistic and naive or to find and out in a conversation, but I wasn't really concerning myself with how I, specifically, define racism, so that is irrelevant.

"Fucking nigger", could be seen as a racist comment because of the historical significance of racism, yes. As far as an action, there would have to be some connection to people who could be considered racist, as far as I can tell (maybe you could provide an example of something you had in mind). If some people just happened to live in Africa and others just happened to live in Europe, I don't see any reasonableness, at all, in the application of racism. With segregation in America, however, it could be the effect of racist feelings and thoughts prevalent in society, not happenstance.

You can label any thing, or any person, you want as racist. I'm questioning that with regard to having a meaningful conversation and addressing problems.

I haven't labeled anyone as a racist, but I have indeed labeled actions and comments as racist. I can't assess their intent, but intent matters little because I can't prove it one way or the other.

I think the only way to have a meaningful conversation about racism, would be to point it out at the start so as to id something specifically.


The poll question is as good of an example as any. The action is based upon race, and is done in such a way as to giver preferential treatment of one race at the exclusion of another. It doesn't matter what the justification is behind it.

In that sense, a college that caters only to one race could be seen as implementing a racist policy for student selection. That is absolutely true. It is (in the cases of all black colleges in the US that I am aware of) not intended to be at the exclusion of another race though, but the furthering of black students in an area that was once heavily segregated. The intent is not racist, but the action still is.

I have no issue labeling it as such, because recognition of it would be the first step in id'ing how to end it. It would be a system where such colleges would be unnecessary in the first place. Sadly, I don't think the US is at that point yet.

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31-07-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 10:31 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 09:37 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A major problem is racial inequality. It is racism. Whether or not that underlying racism births economic issues is irrelevant to the fact.

If by racial inequality you mean poor "blacks" and prosperous "whites", that's just, simply inequality, and that is social and economic.

If you mean bias, discrimination and prejudice in society, then that is that.

If calling it racism is a win for you, go ahead.

The point is that the social inequality exists because of racism. And the furthering of it in the US today, is a continuation of that racism.

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31-07-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 10:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 10:31 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  If by racial inequality you mean poor "blacks" and prosperous "whites", that's just, simply inequality, and that is social and economic.

If you mean bias, discrimination and prejudice in society, then that is that.

If calling it racism is a win for you, go ahead.

The point is that the social inequality exists because of racism. And the furthering of it in the US today, is a continuation of that racism.

Ding. Ding. Ding. Winner

The gears where set in motion during arguably 'more racist' times...But refusing to stop the machine and fix it is racism by inaction.

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31-07-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 10:31 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  If by racial inequality you mean poor "blacks" and prosperous "whites", that's just, simply inequality, and that is social and economic.

If you mean bias, discrimination and prejudice in society, then that is that.

If calling it racism is a win for you, go ahead.

There is no denying it. If you want to abandon the facts in favor of a more comfortable perception, that is your own prerogative.

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31-07-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
(31-07-2013 10:34 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The poll question is as good of an example as any. The action is based upon race, and is done in such a way as to giver preferential treatment of one race at the exclusion of another. It doesn't matter what the justification is behind it.

My problem with the poll question would be that the label of race is placed without regard to the involved actors considerations, or even concepts, of race or racism.

Without even having an idea of the concept of race, people could make decisions that treat others, who look different, differently, even without a conscious justification.

You are labeling the actions as racist, but the actions are not happening void of context. If the results were just because of happenstance, labeling it as racist, to me, would seem sort of nonsensical, but it's obviously related to a person's thoughts and considerations.

I view racism as an ideology and an ideological justification though, which is likely different from how you see it. People would enslave/use any group in order to feel superior socially or on a hierarchical scale or to have a scapegoat. If people were forced to wear different color shirts, I wouldn't be surprised in seeing different results in how the people with different shirts were treated. They are a different subset of human beings just happens to be a better excuse for atrocities than because we felt/feel like it, or it is a better justification in explanation of perceived differences that are not completely understood.

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