Poll: Is it racist to NOT hire someone specifically because of their race and to only hire people of the same race?
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Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
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22-07-2013, 05:12 PM
Re: Pulling the "race card" card
Sounds racist to me. Now, it may be in part what you say as far as clientele choosing places to go because of ethnicity. So maybe it's better to say it enabled racism as opposed to saying was actively racist.

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22-07-2013, 05:28 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 05:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Sounds racist to me. Now, it may be in part what you say as far as clientele choosing places to go because of ethnicity. So maybe it's better to say it enabled racism as opposed to saying was actively racist.

That practice is pushing it. Were the Indian employees unqualified for the position?

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22-07-2013, 05:51 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 03:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The short answer is that I am not, ...
Thanks for answering me straight up. Notice I asked for clarification rather than trying to infer your meaning (hint, hint).

(22-07-2013 04:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If what you are referring to is a system that requires people be weighted by more than just test scores in order to aid people in making it past the application process since test scores most closely correlate with income level, then I support that system.

I think this is where we may differ. This seems more relevant on paying for college, not just simply getting in or being allowed to pass with lower scores. Allowing anyone to pass on lower scores for ANY reason would have the opposite effect of racial discrimination in my opinion. If I knew that XYZ medical school did this then I would be very leery to seek any surgeon from said school. Would I be a racist, no. Just someone with common sense.

(22-07-2013 04:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And while I don't support institutions that use gender, ethnicity, or religious opinion as criteria for entrance, I don't know of any (save some religious institutions) that use their curriculum to support themselves while teaching discrimination of outsiders.

Like I said, I hear about this stuff in the news but I don't really follow it.
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22-07-2013, 06:16 PM
Re: Pulling the "race card" card
I had no intentions of trying to not answer straightforwardly. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I'm not saying someone should be kept in college or university if not capable, but to assert that test scores and gpa are the defining characteristics that dictate who will and will not be capable at that level is preposterous.

There were 4 people who I graduated with in geology at university. The person at the top did have the best gpa and was easily the smartest among us, but her gpa didn't do her justice. Number 2 had a better gpa than I, but she was not as intelligent (I'm not trying be arrogant). She certainly worked harder. And the person who was in last had left the business he started to go back to school. He may have been number 4, but his relative position in the graduating class gave no indication of his interact either.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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22-07-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
LH,

It seems that my assertion on the federal points (for federal employment) was wrong, so my apologies. I didn't do my research before I 'spoke'. The extra points I was referring to was for considerations on loans, grants and so-forth in the banking institutions. I did, however, find that many programs have been passed by all levels of governments that urge or require the use of minorities and/or woman over the majority, that is to say white men. Some of these programs seek out minorities and women specifically regardless of the applications that have been submitted. This includes (but by now means is limited to)

Federal Equal Opportunity Work Program

The "Minority Small Business Subcontracting Program" authorized by § 8(d) of the Small Business Act codified the presumption of disadvantaged status for minority group members that applied by SBA regulation under the [CRS-4] § 8(a) program. (8) Prime contractors on major federal contracts are obliged by § 8(d) to maximize minority participation and to negotiate a "subcontracting plan" with the procuring agency which includes "percentage goals" for utilization of small socially and economically disadvantaged rims. To implement this policy, a clause required for inclusion in each such prime contract states that "[t]he contractors shall presume that socially and economically disadvantaged individuals include Black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, Asian Pacific Americans, and other minorities, or any other individual found to be disadvantaged by the Administration pursuant to § 8(a)..." Accordingly, SBA has discretion in designating a firm or individual as socially and economically disadvantaged for purposes of both the § 8(a) and § 8(d) programs in conformity with specified criteria. (9)

Federal Acquisitions Regulations-General

48 C.F.R. § 19.001(b) (1994): "Individuals who certify that they are members of named groups (Black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, Asian-Pacific Americans, Subcontinent-Asian Americans) are to be considered socially and economically disadvantaged" for purposes of "Socioeconomic Programs" under the Federal Acquisitions Regulation (FAR).

48 C.F.R. § 19.704 (1994): FAR requirement that "[s]eparate percentage goals for using small business concerns and small disadvantaged business concerns as subcontractors" be included in small disadvantaged business subcontracting plans.

7 C.F.R. § 225.6(g)(xi) (1994): Food service management companies participating in the Summer Food Service Program must submit with appropriate state agency a registration which is to include "a statement as to whether the organization is a minority business enterprise" managed and controlled by "Blacks, Hispanics, American Indians, Alaskan Natives, Oriental and Aleuts..."

7 C.F.R. § 246.13(g) (1994): Financial management system maintained by state agencies participating in Special Supplemental Food Program for Women, Infants and Children are "encouraged" to use minority- and women-owned banks.

7 C.F.R. § 1942.17(p)(3)(iii) 1994): Applicants for certain FmHA community facilities loans are "encouraged to use minority banks (a bank which is owned by at least 50 percent minority group members) for the deposit and disbursement of funds."

7 C.F.R. § 1942.472© (1994): Grantees of certain rural housing and community development technical assistance and training grants are "encouraged to use minority banks (a bank which is owned by at least 50 percent minority group members) for the deposit and disbursement of funds."

48 C.F.R. §§ 419.201-72(a), 419.202-71(a) (1994): The Department of Agriculture small disadvantaged business regulations state that "[t]he Department is required . . . to establish fiscal year goals for the procurement preference programs" and mandate "[e]stablishing aggressive minority and women-owned business goals based on the annual review of advance acquisition plans."

48 C.F.R. § 422.804-2 (1994): Affirmative action program provision relating to the Department of Agriculture which states that "each contracting office awarding nonexempt construction contracts maintains a current listing of covered geographical areas subject to affirmative action requirements specifying goals for minorities and women in covered construction."

48 C.F.R. § 452.215-71 (1994): Department of Agriculture instructions for the preparation of technical and cost or pricing proposals state that the contract offeror "[i]ndicate what positive efforts your company will take to implement the concepts of equal employment under the proposed contract" and state the extent of minority enterprise participation "goals the contractor has set in the past five (5) years and his actual performance against these goals."

12 U.S.C.S. § 1441a(r-w): Provides for various incentives, including "preference points" on proposals and minority capital assistance programs, to preserve and expand bank ownership by minorities and women; authorizes establishment of Resolution Trust Corporation guidelines to achieve parity in distribution of RTC contracts, and "reasonable goals" for subcontracting, to minority and women-owned businesses and firms; and provides a "[m]inority preference in acquisition of institutions in predominantly minority neighborhoods." (15)

12 U.S.C.S. § 1823(f)(12): Authorizes Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) approval of minority-controlled bank acquisitions by minority-controlled holding companies without regard to asset size.

12 U.S.C.S. § 1441a(r-w): Provides for various incentives, including "preference points" on proposals and minority capital assistance programs, to preserve and expand bank ownership by minorities and women; authorizes establishment of Resolution Trust Corporation guidelines to achieve parity in distribution of RTC contracts, and "reasonable goals" for subcontracting, to minority and women-owned businesses and firms; and provides a "[m]inority preference in acquisition of institutions in predominantly minority neighborhoods." (15)

12 U.S.C.S. § 1823(f)(12): Authorizes Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) approval of minority-controlled bank acquisitions by minority-controlled holding companies without regard to asset size.
15 C.F.R. § 24.21(h) (1994): Grantees and subgrantees of certain grants and cooperative agreements to state and local government "are encouraged to use minority banks (a bank which is owned at least 50 percent by minority group members)."

15 C.F.R. § 917.11(d) (1994): A "factor considered" in the approval of proposals under the Sea Grant Matched Funding Program "will be the potential of the proposed program to stimulate interest in marine related careers among those individuals, for example, minorities, women, and the handicapped whose previous background or training might not have generated such an interest."

15 C.F.R. § 2301.3 (1994): The National Telecommunications and Information Administration of the Department of Commerce, in administering the Public Telecommunications Facilities Program, "will give special consideration to applications that foster ownership and control of, operation of, and participation in public telecommunication entities by minorities and women."

48 C.F.R. § 1319.7003(a) (1994): Directs contracting officers of the Commerce Department to "provide assistance to prime contractors to identify potential women-owned small businesses. Such assistance is intended to aid prime contractors in placing a fair proportion of subcontracts with women-owned businesses."



I could post pages and pages of this stuff, but I think this is sufficient.

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22-07-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 05:51 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  I think this is where we may differ. This seems more relevant on paying for college, not just simply getting in or being allowed to pass with lower scores. Allowing anyone to pass on lower scores for ANY reason would have the opposite effect of racial discrimination in my opinion. If I knew that XYZ medical school did this then I would be very leery to seek any surgeon from said school. Would I be a racist, no. Just someone with common sense.

In my part of the world there are some preferences given to medical school applicants of certain backgrounds (generally in favour of local or in-province students only, but still). This has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their evaluation while at medical school.

Variable considering for admissions may well be a necessary evil in order to compensate for variable backgrounds. I have never heard of variable standards applied to grading itself within any reputable institute of learning.

(22-07-2013 06:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not saying someone should be kept in college or university if not capable...

Indeed. No one ever has!

(22-07-2013 06:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ... but to assert that test scores and gpa are the defining characteristics that dictate who will and will not be capable at that level is preposterous.

There were 4 people who I graduated with in geology at university. The person at the top did have the best gpa and was easily the smartest among us, but her gpa didn't do her justice. Number 2 had a better gpa than I, but she was not as intelligent (I'm not trying be arrogant). She certainly worked harder. And the person who was in last had left the business he started to go back to school. He may have been number 4, but his relative position in the graduating class gave no indication of his interact either.

It's also true that moderately high test scores coming from a disadvantaged background are likely reflective of a greater potential than moderately high scores derived from a more privileged upbringing.

There are so many external factors - which are strictly speaking more often socioeconomic than explicitly racial, but then, the two are extraordinarily correlated - affecting one's early academic performance that judging purely based on that performance is rather silly (and unfair).

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22-07-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 05:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Sounds racist to me. Now, it may be in part what you say as far as clientele choosing places to go because of ethnicity. So maybe it's better to say it enabled racism as opposed to saying was actively racist.

No you're not seeing the facts.
I don't think people have/had anything against Indian people...
It's just that they are hard to understand. That is a fact.
They also lacked manners which I think is probably a cultural thing.

That isn't to say people hated Indians or had anything against Indians, it's just a simple matter of pleasant-er shopping experience.

It's like if you get a massage. Some people prefer a man to do it or some people prefer a women to do it. It doesn't mean you have ill feelings towards the other sex, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Quote:That practice is pushing it. Were the Indian employees unqualified for the position?

It's pumping gas...
And why is it pushing it? It was my bosses business, why should his business suffer by hiring Indians when he could prevent that by hiring white people.

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22-07-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 07:29 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's pumping gas...
And why is it pushing it? It was my bosses business, why should his business suffer by hiring Indians when he could prevent that by hiring white people.

So if they are equally qualified, how would his business suffer? They have bad manners? Higher ones that are experienced. They are hard to understand? You have to be shitting me if you tell me there has never once been a sufficient English-speaking Indian applicant.

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22-07-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(22-07-2013 06:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I had no intentions of trying to not answer straightforwardly. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I'm not saying someone should be kept in college or university if not capable, but to assert that test scores and gpa are the defining characteristics that dictate who will and will not be capable at that level is preposterous.

There were 4 people who I graduated with in geology at university. The person at the top did have the best gpa and was easily the smartest among us, but her gpa didn't do her justice. Number 2 had a better gpa than I, but she was not as intelligent (I'm not trying be arrogant). She certainly worked harder. And the person who was in last had left the business he started to go back to school. He may have been number 4, but his relative position in the graduating class gave no indication of his interact either.

I do appreciate your answer. I'm sure the nuances are greater than I know being that I'm a high-school drop out who never went to college. Forgive me if I seemed snarky with you. I was curious of your perspective as a teacher as my wife will be one soon. Thanks
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22-07-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
I was sitting at a doctors appointment recently for one of individuals I care for.

There were these two men in the corner talking extremely loudly about some very violent subjects. One of the receptionists had asked him a couple times if they could bring their voices down, which they would for about...a minute, and then return to being loud.

The last time (3rd time) she went over there to ask one of the gentleman starts getting really rude and pissy and one of the first things out of his mouth was "its because I'm mexican isnt it"

I couldnt believe it. So fucking rude. The receptionist started crying she was so horrified he'd pull that.

I felt so bad for her. He clearly just pulled that out of his ass to upset her. I hate people like that.
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