Poll: Is it racist to NOT hire someone specifically because of their race and to only hire people of the same race?
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Pulling the "race card" card (now with a poll)
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24-07-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(23-07-2013 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 07:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A racist will never admit they are a racist. Racism isn't a belief system. That's foolish.

See, now you're just using the same tactics any theist would use by avoiding the topic at hand.

And yes it is. Someone can 'believe' a particular race is superior to another.
I can believe apples taste better then oranges. That is my opinion and it doesn't mean that apples ARE better then oranges (even though they are, and no this is not a metaphor... Dodgy ).
Perhaps a better word would be 'think'. It's a 'think' system.

I stand by my racist action v non-racist action point.

Quote:So he does bring up a good point. I had a conversation once in a class about profiling and this black girl is telling us a story about how her cousin, or brother or someone she knew, had a flat and the cop pulled over to check on him but also wrote him up for an expired reg and forced him to get a tow. She cited this as an example of profiling but I know that it is standard policy to run a plate and call in location before leaving your vehicle, so if you get nailed by a psycho with a tire iron or clipped by traffic the station knows who was involved and where you are, etc, etc. I was tailed by a cop for 7 miles doing the limit and pulled over after making a legal turn around a circle(roundabout) then searched for "stabbin' weapons" because I was 17 had bumper stickers and my cousin had long hair. Is that not profiling? ... I've also been let go (written a summons but allowed to drive home) on an expired reg, is that not profiling by exception?

My point being that these situations are dynamic, are largely between the two parties involved and are open to interpretation much like Muffs is saying.

The lines when it comes to job applications, police profiling, hate crimes, college admissions are so beyond legislation in their subjectiveness that we should be largely ignoring them and instead be focused on the fact that this poor guy was driving a beat up car with old tires and no registration, probably because he couldn't afford to get the thing maintained or get it to pass inspection/pay reg fees. That's the crime. The crime is that black people aren't on the admissions boards and aren't in management and they don't own gas stations because they don't have the opportunity. But again anti-racism laws are cheap to implement and make great bullet points, educating the ghetto is expensive and takes longer than 6 years.

The problem is not with the people it's with the legislators. We can't dictate these subjective situations with anti-racism legislation, but we can help fix the inner city and we can bring back the living wage and the public school.

This.
Though spending time solving problems before they become problems would make too much sense and heaven forbid the politicians did something because it made common sense...

I'm not trying to employee any theist tactics. I posted from my phone and decided to go for concise.

You are trying to rationalize the discrimination at the gas station. Discrimination based on the culture of a person, is racism. Sure, it might be true that people in your area have a hard time understanding them. But that speaks to their desire to learn how to better understand them as much as it speaks to a foreigner who doesn't speak it very well. But at least one of those people has tried to adopt an entirely different language that is typically regarded as one of the most difficult to learn.

Racism could be seen as a belief, but calling it a belief system is hokey. A thinking system might be a better way of calling it but I think it is a system of group mentality and attempted rationalization of that group mentality.

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24-07-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
Quote:And if a person cannot understand that in an Indian accent, I suggest they pull their head out of their ass so they can hear it without it being muffled.

Son, I worked at an Indian restaurant for 6months and it seemed like the only word in my vocabulary was "huh?".
You gotta remember, these are people who have only been in the country for 1 or 2 years. We're not talking about some mild Indian accent, I know that accent and yes it is very understandable, the accent I m referring to is THICK and it's extremely hard to understand.
You gotta note that Asians, particularly Indians are coming into this country right now. We don't have generations upon generations of Indians with some Indian/Kiwi easy to understand blend of accent.

Quote:Actually, no. Favoring one "race" over another because of specific characteristics within society is racism.

So what you're saying is that some people aren't better for some jobs compared to others..?
example: A fat old guy and a young fit guy go for a job interview for a construction job. Both have no experience. Both are keen to work.
Is it 'racist' (I don't know the term for judging against people of different weight, weightism??) to hire the young fit guy over the fat old guy?
Because that's what you're saying.
You're saying that it is wrong for employers to hire based purely on who's a better fit the job...

Quote:Keep in mind I don't like the word "race" because I don't actually believe we are separate races.

cool story bro

Quote:Who the hell fills their car up everyday? Coffeedrinker

They don't have to fill up their car to shop at the gas station... Smokes for example, we had regular customers who brought smokes every day but I have no idea if they even own a car... The local workers around the corner, every day 6-8 of them would show up at 3pm.
Every morning 6am, sometimes even before I arrived to open up (because I was useless and always late but w/e) a guy from the same place around the corner would fill up the forklifts they use in their workshop. The boss of that place would come every day and fill up his car. Another guy would bring by all the work vehicles that needed filling up that day. Several other businessmen would fill up every day.
Several people who only brought $10 gas because that's all they could afford at the time filled up almost once a day.
I could go on if you like?

Quote:No, he just hires white people because those brown people are ignorant and hard to understand. It is definitely not racism.

I never said they were ignorant...
He hires white people because his customers like white people.

Quote:That's because the cop's intent was not to pull over the car specifically because he is black. Your boss is hiring with the intent to exclude Indians. That is racial discrimination. It is racism.

No.. He is hiring with intent of catering to his customers.

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24-07-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 09:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  See, now you're just using the same tactics any theist would use by avoiding the topic at hand.

And yes it is. Someone can 'believe' a particular race is superior to another.
I can believe apples taste better then oranges. That is my opinion and it doesn't mean that apples ARE better then oranges (even though they are, and no this is not a metaphor... Dodgy ).
Perhaps a better word would be 'think'. It's a 'think' system.

I stand by my racist action v non-racist action point.


This.
Though spending time solving problems before they become problems would make too much sense and heaven forbid the politicians did something because it made common sense...

I'm not trying to employee any theist tactics. I posted from my phone and decided to go for concise.

You are trying to rationalize the discrimination at the gas station. Discrimination based on the culture of a person, is racism. Sure, it might be true that people in your area have a hard time understanding them. But that speaks to their desire to learn how to better understand them as much as it speaks to a foreigner who doesn't speak it very well. But at least one of those people has tried to adopt an entirely different language that is typically regarded as one of the most difficult to learn.

Racism could be seen as a belief, but calling it a belief system is hokey. A thinking system might be a better way of calling it but I think it is a system of group mentality and attempted rationalization of that group mentality.

I think what Muffs is trying to explain here is Race realism vs Racism. If I have no racist views (other than white people fuck them Wink ) but I am in an area where the general consensus is ignorant backwater redneck bs then to run a business I would have to take that into account.

2 examples of this (you can think they are right or wrong but they are real life) 1st one was a local restaurant that had an open kitchen in the front with a big picture window so you could see from the outside who was cooking your food and how. They went out of business because they employed Mexican cooks (something that every restaurant in the country does) and the gringos could see them. This had been a semi-historic landmark type of place before this and had been around for over 50 years. Now had the owner fired the 2 cooks and brought in 2 black women or a white guy and kept his business open would that have been racist or realism?

2nd example: In America walk into any Sushi restaurant and look for a white guy. Chances are you wont find any because part of the appeal of sushi is the exotic nature of it (for most people anyway) as such the chefs wear traditional Japanese style clothing. If most Americans walked into a sushi place and saw a couple of white guys making their spicy tuna rolls they would turn around and walk out. So again is that racist (maybe) but is it realistic of the business owner to know his area and his customer base.

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24-07-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 09:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  See, now you're just using the same tactics any theist would use by avoiding the topic at hand.

And yes it is. Someone can 'believe' a particular race is superior to another.
I can believe apples taste better then oranges. That is my opinion and it doesn't mean that apples ARE better then oranges (even though they are, and no this is not a metaphor... Dodgy ).
Perhaps a better word would be 'think'. It's a 'think' system.

I stand by my racist action v non-racist action point.


This.
Though spending time solving problems before they become problems would make too much sense and heaven forbid the politicians did something because it made common sense...

I'm not trying to employee any theist tactics. I posted from my phone and decided to go for concise.

You are trying to rationalize the discrimination at the gas station. Discrimination based on the culture of a person, is racism. Sure, it might be true that people in your area have a hard time understanding them. But that speaks to their desire to learn how to better understand them as much as it speaks to a foreigner who doesn't speak it very well. But at least one of those people has tried to adopt an entirely different language that is typically regarded as one of the most difficult to learn.

Racism could be seen as a belief, but calling it a belief system is hokey. A thinking system might be a better way of calling it but I think it is a system of group mentality and attempted rationalization of that group mentality.

Of course I am trying to rationalize it.
Would you think objectively about this is everyone just posted "yes TBD, racism is wrong" "oh yes fellow co-forumer racism is bad" blah blah
no. Someone's gotta offer up something to keep the discussion going and interesting.
People complain the forums dead but complain when someone tries to do something about it, it's a no win situation around here...
Whatever.

Okay, let's go back a bit shall we?
I think perhaps we are asking the wrong questions.
So, what is racism?
Dictionary.com defines racism as:

1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


A 'belief', huh... how about that.
"Hatred or intolerance of another race"
"the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others"

Now, let us examine what I have said.
My boss hired based on customer 'demand'.

Does this action alone fulfill the criteria of racism?
We don't know because I don't know his opinions and neither do you.

You can argue it does or it doesn't but until we know the reasons behind the action, we cannot say with any certainty that it is or isn't a racist action.

What I'm saying (again) is that it's the reason behind the action that makes the action racist or not.

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24-07-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 10:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 09:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not trying to employee any theist tactics. I posted from my phone and decided to go for concise.

You are trying to rationalize the discrimination at the gas station. Discrimination based on the culture of a person, is racism. Sure, it might be true that people in your area have a hard time understanding them. But that speaks to their desire to learn how to better understand them as much as it speaks to a foreigner who doesn't speak it very well. But at least one of those people has tried to adopt an entirely different language that is typically regarded as one of the most difficult to learn.

Racism could be seen as a belief, but calling it a belief system is hokey. A thinking system might be a better way of calling it but I think it is a system of group mentality and attempted rationalization of that group mentality.

Of course I am trying to rationalize it.
Would you think objectively about this is everyone just posted "yes TBD, racism is wrong" "oh yes fellow co-forumer racism is bad" blah blah
no. Someone's gotta offer up something to keep the discussion going and interesting.
People complain the forums dead but complain when someone tries to do something about it, it's a no win situation around here...
Whatever.

Okay, let's go back a bit shall we?
I think perhaps we are asking the wrong questions.
So, what is racism?
Dictionary.com defines racism as:

1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


A 'belief', huh... how about that.
"Hatred or intolerance of another race"
"the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others"

Now, let us examine what I have said.
My boss hired based on customer 'demand'.

Does this action alone fulfill the criteria of racism?
We don't know because I don't know his opinions and neither do you.

You can argue it does or it doesn't but until we know the reasons behind the action, we cannot say with any certainty that it is or isn't a racist action.

What I'm saying (again) is that it's the reason behind the action that makes the action racist or not.

You have a long-standing spat with, someone, on the forum (I honestly don't remember who) about homophobia. Would you feel the same way if the persons not being hired were all gay? That the rationalization is that people in the area might not come to the store because of it?

It's being prejudiced based on race and ethnicity. Sure, it might very well be that it is the clientele who are racist and not the person doing the hiring, but they are enabling the racism.

(I also called it a belief but calling it a belief system is BS, in the same way that calling homophobia a belief system is BS. It can be the product of a belief system though)

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24-07-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 10:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 10:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Of course I am trying to rationalize it.
Would you think objectively about this is everyone just posted "yes TBD, racism is wrong" "oh yes fellow co-forumer racism is bad" blah blah
no. Someone's gotta offer up something to keep the discussion going and interesting.
People complain the forums dead but complain when someone tries to do something about it, it's a no win situation around here...
Whatever.

Okay, let's go back a bit shall we?
I think perhaps we are asking the wrong questions.
So, what is racism?
Dictionary.com defines racism as:

1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


A 'belief', huh... how about that.
"Hatred or intolerance of another race"
"the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others"

Now, let us examine what I have said.
My boss hired based on customer 'demand'.

Does this action alone fulfill the criteria of racism?
We don't know because I don't know his opinions and neither do you.

You can argue it does or it doesn't but until we know the reasons behind the action, we cannot say with any certainty that it is or isn't a racist action.

What I'm saying (again) is that it's the reason behind the action that makes the action racist or not.

You have a long-standing spat with, someone, on the forum (I honestly don't remember who) about homophobia. Would you feel the same way if the persons not being hired were all gay? That the rationalization is that people in the area might not come to the store because of it?

It's being prejudiced based on race and ethnicity. Sure, it might very well be that it is the clientele who are racist and not the person doing the hiring, but they are enabling the racism.

(I also called it a belief but calling it a belief system is BS, in the same way that calling homophobia a belief system is BS. It can be the product of a belief system though)

I knew the gay thing would come up. Trying to hit close to home I suspect. My opinions on the whole gay thing are far complicated then you may think, it wont work...

My opinion still stands. It doesn't matter if it's gay's, Indian's, white's or whomever, I'm not racist like that.
You have to understand that this is not about the subject matter, it's about action and reason and how the later makes the prior a racist action or not. It doesn't matter if it's gay/straight, male/female, young/old, skinny/fat, black/white etc...
The action is only racist if the reason for the action is racist.

And yes of course it's enabling. Irrelevant.

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24-07-2013, 11:00 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 10:59 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 10:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You have a long-standing spat with, someone, on the forum (I honestly don't remember who) about homophobia. Would you feel the same way if the persons not being hired were all gay? That the rationalization is that people in the area might not come to the store because of it?

It's being prejudiced based on race and ethnicity. Sure, it might very well be that it is the clientele who are racist and not the person doing the hiring, but they are enabling the racism.

(I also called it a belief but calling it a belief system is BS, in the same way that calling homophobia a belief system is BS. It can be the product of a belief system though)

I knew the gay thing would come up. Trying to hit close to home I suspect. My opinions on the whole gay thing are far complicated then you may think, it wont work...

My opinion still stands. It doesn't matter if it's gay's, Indian's, white's or whomever, I'm not racist like that.
You have to understand that this is not about the subject matter, it's about action and reason and how the later makes the prior a racist action or not. It doesn't matter if it's gay/straight, male/female, young/old, skinny/fat, black/white etc...
The action is only racist if the reason for the action is racist.

And yes of course it's enabling. Irrelevant.

I truly don't understand that statement at all. It is enabling racism, which implies it is racist, but it isn't racism?

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24-07-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
And no, it doesn't matter what the rationalization is either. You can say it is because people can't understand them, and someone who opposes gay marriage will say it is because gays can't procreate or that marriage is a biblical term and therefore means gays can't get married. It can be given a rationalization that isn't based on hate or fear of the person in question, and still be a BS prejudiced decision and stance.

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24-07-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
(24-07-2013 11:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 10:59 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I knew the gay thing would come up. Trying to hit close to home I suspect. My opinions on the whole gay thing are far complicated then you may think, it wont work...

My opinion still stands. It doesn't matter if it's gay's, Indian's, white's or whomever, I'm not racist like that.
You have to understand that this is not about the subject matter, it's about action and reason and how the later makes the prior a racist action or not. It doesn't matter if it's gay/straight, male/female, young/old, skinny/fat, black/white etc...
The action is only racist if the reason for the action is racist.

And yes of course it's enabling. Irrelevant.

I truly don't understand that statement at all. It is enabling racism, which implies it is racist, but it isn't racism?

It's not enabling for racist reasons and thus, not racist.

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24-07-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Pulling the "race card" card
My comment I posted right before that addresses that one.

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