Punishment
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08-06-2016, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 04:14 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 03:36 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  Religion is of ourselves too. Someone had the bright idea. Negative reinforcement. It really works too. Carrot + Stick. I don't think it's only religious in nature, but religion is one area where it's exploited to the hilt.

Religion itself its own punishment!

I agree and it's sad, being told by everyone you know that you are a sinful broken being that can only be saved by a sky daddy and his zombie kid. You're being punished simply for being born.

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08-06-2016, 04:15 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 03:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:31 PM)julep Wrote:  I think it's part of our adaptation to living in cooperative groups. To get to a useful level of cooperation, certain kinds of antisocial behavior have to be discouraged. Fear of consequences is not necessarily the best way to motivate people to behave, but it's often effective up to a point.

What religion seems to do is aggravate punishment by adding a shaming/moral dimension to it. Religion also attempts to motivate behavior with the promise of a reward, which can sometimes work, until people realize the reward is nonexistent.

In other animal societies proper behavior is reinforced by the leader, who will make the transgressor submit. I suppose that could be a precursor to punishment, but it is just a settling of who's boss.

But even the simplest human society is more complicated and specialized than other mammal societies. With tribes formed of larger numbers of people performing varied functions, it's not as possible to designate who is "the" leader/most important and where everybody fits in; the social ordering is more fluid. To me, it's not surprising that we evolved past two-party punishment to third-party punishment and beyond as ways to help large numbers of people live together.

A weird example from my own house: we had a dog and then got a kitten, thereby increasing the size and complexity of our household. The dog had a good understanding of his place in our pack, but he was visibly confused and then seemed upset the first time he saw the cat break a "dog rule" (sitting on the table)--he barked and whipped his head toward the cat repeatedly, in the way he had of trying to draw our attention to something important, like a bowl empty of dog food. I don't think that the dog felt guilty when he was punished (by us saying, "bad dog!"), but he did seem to understand that breaking the rules for dogs incurred consequences and to be surprised that the cat broke the rule without a consequence. It seemed as though the dog wanted us to punish the cat, or at least couldn't understand why we weren't.

Of course I could be anthropomorphizing his reaction, and I'm not a social scientist or biologist. Just speculating.
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08-06-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 04:15 PM)julep Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  In other animal societies proper behavior is reinforced by the leader, who will make the transgressor submit. I suppose that could be a precursor to punishment, but it is just a settling of who's boss.

But even the simplest human society is more complicated and specialized than other mammal societies. With tribes formed of larger numbers of people performing varied functions, it's not as possible to designate who is "the" leader/most important and where everybody fits in; the social ordering is more fluid. To me, it's not surprising that we evolved past two-party punishment to third-party punishment and beyond as ways to help large numbers of people live together.

A weird example from my own house: we had a dog and then got a kitten, thereby increasing the size and complexity of our household. The dog had a good understanding of his place in our pack, but he was visibly confused and then seemed upset the first time he saw the cat break a "dog rule" (sitting on the table)--he barked and whipped his head toward the cat repeatedly, in the way he had of trying to draw our attention to something important, like a bowl empty of dog food. I don't think that the dog felt guilty when he was punished (by us saying, "bad dog!"), but he did seem to understand that breaking the rules for dogs incurred consequences and to be surprised that the cat broke the rule without a consequence. It seemed as though the dog wanted us to punish the cat, or at least couldn't understand why we weren't.

Of course I could be anthropomorphizing his reaction, and I'm not a social scientist or biologist. Just speculating.

You were not punishing the dog, you were communicating to him that you didn't appreciate his behavior. Huuuge difference. And the dog was merely pointing out unusual goings on (animal on a table). I have a police canine, and he always points out anything unusual to me, from items being left out of place to a sprinkler malfunctioning and making funny noises. Most dogs will do so to a point. Cats, too.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-06-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Punishment
Chimpanzees will punish personal offenses, apparently.

According to that article, the don't have social punishment, which indicates to me a lack of empathy.

Another interesting read on punishment in the animal kingdon, this one implying social extension: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/...ieties.pdf
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08-06-2016, 06:37 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 03:07 PM)Dom Wrote:  I am thinking that punishment is a religious concept. It goes along with sin, free will bestowed by god, and a vengeful god.

Other than mothers inflicting pain on offspring to warn it off a dangerous behavior (and that is NOT punishment, it's love), I don't see it in other animals. Animals do remove others from the group for various reasons, but they do not "punish". To my knowledge anyway.

The idea of punishment is incredibly ingrained in humans. Where did it come from? Are we that different from all other animals?

Increasingly I want to blame religion for it.

First thing that popped into my head was Erewhon.

#sigh
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08-06-2016, 06:50 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 03:31 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:13 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Animals do punish as well

For this I'm going to have to ask for proof. I would have to make sure there is no projection involved in such an observation.

Animals have been a pre-occupation of mine my entire life, and never once have I seen anything resembling punishment. Punishment assumes willful transgression and guilt.

There is no guilt in animals. All the pictures of "guilty" looking dogs are pictures of dogs in fear because their owners are angry and the dog doesn't get it.

Many apes and chimpanzees (pretty sure others) inflict punishments on adolescents. Dolphins, according to some naturalists, do similar things. There was a Ted talk on monkeys where they clearly demonstrated jealousy when one monkey, saw another monkey receive preferential treatment -- in the form of extra treats (they each performed a task and got a treat. They also displayed a sense of fairness by sharing a treat, when both monkeys performed the same task, but only one got a special treat.

Wolves have been studied to show a definite hierarchy, where a challenger that fails more than a few times, is frozen out for a while. When they demonstrate submission they're usually allowed back but if it continues they're kicked out of the pack.

http://www.livescience.com/16814-animals...point.html

Elephants have cognitive abllities and display altruism.

We're learning more that many animal species are more like us than we'd care to admit.


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08-06-2016, 06:57 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 06:21 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Chimpanzees will punish personal offenses, apparently.

According to that article, the don't have social punishment, which indicates to me a lack of empathy.

Another interesting read on punishment in the animal kingdon, this one implying social extension: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/...ieties.pdf

Ok, the first one doesn't give enough details, like how they define "punishment" and what it consisted of and such. It is not at all clear whether the observed behaviors were dominance enforcements or punishment.

The second one I will have to read tomorrow, it calls for a close look. Looks interesting.

I think we need to define "punishment" for this thread, too. It's such a loaded word, I bet it means very different things to different people.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-06-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 06:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:31 PM)Dom Wrote:  For this I'm going to have to ask for proof. I would have to make sure there is no projection involved in such an observation.

Animals have been a pre-occupation of mine my entire life, and never once have I seen anything resembling punishment. Punishment assumes willful transgression and guilt.

There is no guilt in animals. All the pictures of "guilty" looking dogs are pictures of dogs in fear because their owners are angry and the dog doesn't get it.

Many apes and chimpanzees (pretty sure others) inflict punishments on adolescents. Dolphins, according to some naturalists, do similar things. There was a Ted talk on monkeys where they clearly demonstrated jealousy when one monkey, saw another monkey receive preferential treatment -- in the form of extra treats (they each performed a task and got a treat. They also displayed a sense of fairness by sharing a treat, when both monkeys performed the same task, but only one got a special treat.

Wolves have been studied to show a definite hierarchy, where a challenger that fails more than a few times, is frozen out for a while. When they demonstrate submission they're usually allowed back but if it continues they're kicked out of the pack.

http://www.livescience.com/16814-animals...point.html

Elephants have cognitive abllities and display altruism.

We're learning more that many animal species are more like us than we'd care to admit.

Yes, they are in so many ways more like us than we care to admit. But one also has to be extremely careful not to project causes for their actions. They often don't perceive things the same way we do, they take clues from many things that we ignore and vice versa.

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08-06-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 04:15 PM)julep Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 03:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  In other animal societies proper behavior is reinforced by the leader, who will make the transgressor submit. I suppose that could be a precursor to punishment, but it is just a settling of who's boss.

But even the simplest human society is more complicated and specialized than other mammal societies. With tribes formed of larger numbers of people performing varied functions, it's not as possible to designate who is "the" leader/most important and where everybody fits in; the social ordering is more fluid. To me, it's not surprising that we evolved past two-party punishment to third-party punishment and beyond as ways to help large numbers of people live together.

A weird example from my own house: we had a dog and then got a kitten, thereby increasing the size and complexity of our household. The dog had a good understanding of his place in our pack, but he was visibly confused and then seemed upset the first time he saw the cat break a "dog rule" (sitting on the table)--he barked and whipped his head toward the cat repeatedly, in the way he had of trying to draw our attention to something important, like a bowl empty of dog food. I don't think that the dog felt guilty when he was punished (by us saying, "bad dog!"), but he did seem to understand that breaking the rules for dogs incurred consequences and to be surprised that the cat broke the rule without a consequence. It seemed as though the dog wanted us to punish the cat, or at least couldn't understand why we weren't.

Of course I could be anthropomorphizing his reaction, and I'm not a social scientist or biologist. Just speculating.

I'm reminded when my friend's kids were little. They didn't allow the kids on the bar stools. That changed as the kids grew but the dog just never wrapped their head around that. Laugh out load

He'd run around and bark, but when his warnings weren't heeded, he'd flop down on the dog bed and sigh.

My friend swears there was a look of satisfaction on the dog, when her son was goofing around and fell from the bar stool.

The dog sat there next to her son and looked at my friend with a distinct "I told you so look."

I can go downstairs into the backyard and our dog can care less. My older son can do it too and my man....but the younger kid isn't allowed according to our dog. It could be habit...I don't know. But he will try to stop my younger son, and if that fails he will follow him down.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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08-06-2016, 09:34 PM
RE: Punishment
(08-06-2016 06:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  I think we need to define "punishment" for this thread, too. It's such a loaded word, I bet it means very different things to different people.

I think we can all agree that punishment is negative reinforcement applied after undesired behavior.
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