Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
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10-10-2010, 08:25 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
From what I understand, and have been told by many christians, is that the Ten Commandments is an abbreviation of the 633 mosaic laws, which can be found in leviticus.
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10-10-2010, 10:57 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
If so, it's not a very good abbreviation as it still contains a lot of redundancy. Actually, it's kind of a stretch to even break it down to ten. It kind of rambles.

George Carlin had a great bit where he broke the commandments down even further.

/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM
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10-10-2010, 11:05 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
DUDE!

Man, you rankle me.

You called me out on something and you were wrong. Are you incapable of admitting that? I was talking, quite specifically and more to the point, ACURATELY, about the Spanish Inquisition and you said I had a lack of historical knowledge because I wasn't talking about the entire Inquisition. I can talk about World War II without talking about World War I, its outcome, the Rhineland, Slovakia declaring independence, or the Treaty of Versailles.

Quote:This is what drives me crazy. The massive simplification of events that ignores the important details and nuances. Of course in its simplest form it's a meme hunt. So what? The actual motivations are important. It seems almost dismissive to break it down the way you do, at least to me it does. The what's and why's are more important then the sociological definitions.

What are the important details and nuances?
What are the actual motivations and what makes them important?
What are the whats and what are the whys?

You wanna run your mouth? Back it up!

It's dismissive for ME to break it down the way I do? You do realise of course that you said, "It's primary purpose was to ensure adherence to Church doctrines," when I said exactly that in the post before you ("It [the Spanish Inquisition] was set in motion to ensure that Spaniards were good Catholics and in particular, that Jewish and Islamic converts were good Catholics.") and reiterated how I was saying the same thing in the post following you ("The memes that challenge, counteract or disarticulate those [doctrinal] memes from the Catholic memeplex or that replace the Catholic memeplex entirely are the ones they were hunting.") and you still said that I am simplifying things, right? Like, you caught that?

Quote:We had a similar disagreement on the Crusades and I'm getting a better understanding of how you approach things. To me, it seems you are ignoring the small, which are often the important, details of the story.

What are the small and important details that I am ignoring?

Someone asked me a straight up question and I tried to answer it to the best of my ability. Then you swoop in and have the audacity to not only say I lack historical knowledge when I was right, but to libelously accuse me Fox News-style of some long standing pattern of willfully posting inacurate information out of laziness and incompetence without yourself posting a single example or even a shred of evidence and you expect me to take it sitting down? For real, dude, not cool.

Yes, I tend to come at things from a systems thinking perspective. I talk about what people are actually doing and I talk about why those behaviours exist because my contribution to the world is to identify the root causes of the behaviours that have the most deleterious effects on humanity so that we can all move away from them. But I'm not wrong because I don't refrence archived correspondences between Isabella I and Ferdinand II, or discuss Spanish resentment of the Moorish occupation that had ended just before the Inquisition or what personal events in Isabella I's life led her to make conversion from Islam to Catholocism mandatory for Moors that wanted to stay in Spain (Jews too). I'm like a doctor who identifies diseases and their causes. I don't much care about symptoms, or what Johnny was doing when he caught it from Jane, or the day by day account of Johnny's battle with it (because his battle is pretty much the same as anyone's battle with it) but I do care to know if it affects a small part of the population (GRID only affects homosexual men) or the entire population (Holy crap, AIDS affects everyone!) and I care about finding a cure.

You ask why identifying the Spanish Inquisition as a meme hunt is important? Because meme hunts are a serious problem. Always. It's because they reduce cultural diversity and because the meme host is targeted to get at the meme which means that knowledge is destroyed (book burnings, censorship, punishment for practicing your culture, forced re-education) and that individuals and/or entire populations get ostracised, banished, imprisoned, injured, tortured, starved, killed or damned. So I have no interest in demonising the Spanish Inquisition as some anomalous blip in an otherwise perfect world. I want to say, this is ONE occurence of a larger systemic trend that we should all be worried about. It's a symptom, not a cause.

I hope you're getting a better understanding of me because to date you have been stone cold wrong about me EVERY SINGLE TIME you have uttered some great pronouncement about me as a person and quite frankly I'm sick of having to mop up after you drag me through the mud.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-10-2010, 05:57 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
Quote:You called me out on something and you were wrong. Are you incapable of admitting that? I was talking, quite specifically and more to the point, ACURATELY, about the Spanish Inquisition and you said I had a lack of historical knowledge because I wasn't talking about the entire Inquisition. I can talk about World War II without talking about World War I, its outcome, the Rhineland, Slovakia declaring independence, or the Treaty of Versailles.

You missed the point. The point is that the Spanish Inquisition does not stand on its own and you can't extrapolate the causes of it in a vacuum. It was part of a larger phenomena. Interesting you choose to make your point using the WWI/WWII example. You may be able to talk about WWII without discussing those other topics but you can't really talk about the causes of WWII without discussing WWI, it's outcome, etc. It simply does not exist in a vacuum. However, perhaps it was unfair to say you lacked historical knowledge, but based on your comments it certainly seemed that way to me.

Quote:What are the important details and nuances?
What are the actual motivations and what makes them important?
What are the whats and what are the whys?

You wanna run your mouth? Back it up!

Ok, this gets to the heart of it so I'll focus on this point. Your description of a "meme hunt" completely misses the point. What you've tried to do, on more than one occasion, is basically remove the religious aspects to these stories and try to push them off as actually being the result of something other than what it is. It's almost a form of denial, equivalent to saying "well, the Holocaust happened but it didn't happen because they were Jews. There was no religious based Antisemitism involved, they just didn't get along because of different memes" (and before this leads down a new and different road, no, I'm not accusing you of that I'm just making a point).

Consider the Crusades argument. Forgive me for not finding the exact thread but the basics of it was you were arguing that it was a power issue and religion had little or nothing to do with it. When it was pointed out to you that the historical record said otherwise and perhaps you should research it, your comment was something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "well, someone will have to show me something specific because I don't believe it".

My approach may rankle you but what rankles me is a complete unwillingness to acknowledge the historical record and the atrocities that were committed, who committed them and why. At 100,000 feet above the Earth, the Spanish Inquisition was a "meme hunt". But, at ground level it was the persecution of people based on religious fever and belief that in the supremacy of a given religion and how that belief gave the adherents to it the right to torment and torture innocent people because that's what God wanted them to do. The defense of this ideology came prior to the Spanish and was an established doctrine of the Church at that time and for a period of close to 600 years. Dressing it up in sociological academic gobblygook like "it was a meme hunt" reads like we should just shrug our shoulders at the whole thing with a "boys will be boys attitude". I realize that may not what you intended to convey but that is how it comes off, at least to me and more than once.

The nuances and the why's of the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Stalin purges, the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge all matter. That's how we learn and how we take steps to minimize the occurrence of these things in the future.

I realize tone is tough to read in these posts so you may read this as I'm trying to pick a fight here. I'm not, though. I'm responding to your comment for me to "back it up".

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-10-2010, 09:17 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
Hey, BnW.

(read this as if my tone was that of a person who just did some screaming, got it all out and is now calm and chill, almost hippie-level "hey, man")

Look. I know that the Inquisition is long and complex. I know that the events of WWI led to WWII. But I can talk about D-Day without going into the whole story and I can talk about war without mentioning either war. I can also talk about the Spanish Inquisition without talking about Portugal. Sure it's more complex and it's all interconnected but if humans could only discuss things in whole, there'd be no such thing as small talk. I also know that "Spanish Inquisition" can be improperly taken to mean the entire Inquisition and yes, that's problematic. But... you know what I'm saying.

If I call the Holocaust a genocide am I missing the point? I'm ignoring all of the historical background and nuance, but if I discuss it as a genocide and compare it to the Killing Fields or the Rwandan Genocide, is that unreasonable?

If I also say, genocides are not caused by antisemitism, have I missed the point? Rwanda certainly was not, yet it's still a genocide. When I push aside the religious question, I'm saying, there is a larger phenomenon at work here. I don't want to get lost in the religious question, I want to look at the phenomenon. Saying I'm not interested in German antisemitism right now, I want to discuss genocide is the same as saying I'm not interested in the Catholic Church right now, I want to discuss meme hunts.

Your memory of the Crusades thread is faulty. I never said those things. But let's drop that for now. I just wanted to get on record.

Like I tried to say above, I look at systems mostly. I can discuss particulars and historical events and all the rest, quite well actually, but it's what I focus on when I'm at a party being Buzz Killington, not what I focus on when I'm trying to pick a system apart.

Catholics tortured and killed non-Catholics in the Inquisition. Fine. But Catholicism isn't the cause of meme hunts. The danger as I see it is if we stop there, or if we say genocide is caused by antisemitism, then meme hunts and genocides will occur for other reasons and we'll all scratch our heads and say, "I don't get it." Even worse, we won't scrutinise our own society when we are on the road to such travesties because we won't believe ourselves capable of them. "We couldn't do that, that what THEY do". To understand and stop famines, genocides and meme hunts, we must look beyond Ethiopia, Rwanda and Salem and not get lost in the allure of their emotional arguments.

If I'm trying to eradicate cancer, I might look at one patients tumour, but if I'm gonna understand the disease and develop a cure, one patient's tumour is of little consequence because aside from some relatively superficial things, it's the same as a million other tumours. Grows the same, spreads the same, kills the same. Granted, one patients tumour might unlock a secret for the whole disease, but even then, we're talking about the entire disease, not his tumour. It might seem callous to some to ignore individual suffering when discussing a wider issue, but I'm not trying to help one person, I'm trying to help everyone.

It was unfair to say I lacked historical knowledge. There were a number of things that you said that were unfair. I've already pointed them out. It wasn't cool. It upset me and it hurt me personally because it was a personal attack. That's why I reacted the way that I did. I hope we don't have to go through that again. You're a smart man. I'm a smart man. When we discuss things with a civil tone, we actually figure a lot out.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-10-2010, 06:07 PM
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
Quote:If I call the Holocaust a genocide am I missing the point? I'm ignoring all of the historical background and nuance, but if I discuss it as a genocide and compare it to the Killing Fields or the Rwandan Genocide, is that unreasonable?

If I also say, genocides are not caused by antisemitism, have I missed the point? Rwanda certainly was not, yet it's still a genocide. When I push aside the religious question, I'm saying, there is a larger phenomenon at work here. I don't want to get lost in the religious question, I want to look at the phenomenon. Saying I'm not interested in German antisemitism right now, I want to discuss genocide is the same as saying I'm not interested in the Catholic Church right now, I want to discuss meme hunts.

My disagreement here is that you seem to indicate that genocide is the phenomenon and that they all have some commonality to them (aside from the obvious mass murder). They are not "systems", though, and I think when you lump them together you miss the lessons of each event.

Quote:Catholics tortured and killed non-Catholics in the Inquisition. Fine. But Catholicism isn't the cause of meme hunts. The danger as I see it is if we stop there, or if we say genocide is caused by antisemitism, then meme hunts and genocides will occur for other reasons and we'll all scratch our heads and say, "I don't get it." Even worse, we won't scrutinise our own society when we are on the road to such travesties because we won't believe ourselves capable of them. "We couldn't do that, that what THEY do". To understand and stop famines, genocides and meme hunts, we must look beyond Ethiopia, Rwanda and Salem and not get lost in the allure of their emotional arguments.

Ok, this is interesting. I agree that it is important to get past the emotional arguments and analyze things objectively. I'm an objective person and a large part of my professional success (such as it is) is my ability to emotionally detach from something and to see it as it really is. I'm not perfect at this - we all get invested in our opinions and positions - but I'm generally pretty good at it. My employer thinks I'm better than most which is probably why they keep me around. So, on that point we agree. Where we disagree is on what the breakdowns should be and the need to focus on the details. I don't want to belabor the point but I think you do a great disservice to the analysis when you dismiss, as one example, the religious aspects in these genocides. When you believe you have an almighty being on your side, the capacity for cruelty seems to grow. For me, the study of just "memes" is far too high level for any meaningful, rational analysis.

Quote:It was unfair to say I lacked historical knowledge.

Fair enough. I think I conceded that above. I did not intend my original post as you obviously took it but I read it again and it could be read as a personal attack. For that I apologize.

Quote:You're a smart man.

Not really. I'm just a good virtual actor.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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12-10-2010, 06:21 PM
 
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
See, how much easier it is to be inspired to be an atheist? Wink No laws, no worry!

What Happens when We Break the 10 Commandments?
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13-10-2010, 06:24 AM
 
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
The ten commandments is still applicable to. Though some of the mosaic law were fulfilled by Jesus the ten commandment should not be overlook by men. During the time of Moses any person found guilty of disobeying it is stoned to death. Nowadays, those who disobey it will not suffer physical death but a spiritual death.
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13-10-2010, 11:29 AM
 
RE: Punishments for breaking the ten commandments?
(13-10-2010 06:24 AM)rcbako Wrote:  

The ten commandments is still applicable to
. Though some of the mosaic law were fulfilled by Jesus the ten commandment should not be overlook by men. During the time of Moses any person found guilty of disobeying it is stoned to death. Nowadays, those who disobey it will not suffer physical death but a spiritual death.
This is an atheist forum, you know. Huh So the 10 of Moshe do not apply to atheists, because atheists do not recognize the presence or "truth" of the god that bestowed them upon believers.

Omniscience created fallible sinful mortals, to bear the curse of god's deficit upon them eternally for the finite mistake ignorant Eve and Adam made, for lack of the intellect to make an informed choice.
Now Omniscient Omnipresence watches human sinners destiny unfold, knowing full well the lie of free will makes those humans think they're responsible for all of the choices that imperil their after life, while in truth there is no such thing as free will within the domain of an omniscient higher power who created humans as lesser beings and then judges them for following their god given nature, while god watches.

The Mosaic laws don't apply but unto those who give credence to them, as they, masochists all, worship the law giver sadist in Heaven.
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