Purpose/Pefection problem?
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11-10-2014, 07:10 AM
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(10-10-2014 10:56 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  So this is my own thought, which probably means someone smarter already thought of it and someone else shot it down. Thus I present it here to find out where I'm going wrong.

God is often defined as perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and having a purpose for the universe. However it occurs to me that such a being would have no need of a universe to accomplish whatever the purpose is. That is, an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being would skip this whole universe thing and go straight to whatever final result was desired.

That's it. Shred away. Smile

Richard Dawkins in the opening of his book "The Greatest Show On Earth" blames our modern political and religious utopia thinking on Plato. Plato used to be my hero until I read that opening. But when a friend of mine explained to me what Dawkins was saying, it made sense and now I agree that Plato single handed fuck up human thinking.

Plato did value questioning, but he had the idea of finding the "essence" of something through mere thought. This gave rise to the idea of finding the "perfect" anything, and has since infected politics and religion since.

What Plato had no concept of was our modern quality control in scientific method of testing and falsification and control groups.

Plato did have value in the idea of questioning and his "Allegory Of The Cave" still has metaphorical value in the idea that your perceptions of reality can be flawed. And that by leaving the cave you can see a different reality. But he still fucked up logic with his concept of seeking a "ultimate, or perfect" "whatever" merely by thinking about it.

But outside Plato the evolutionary reason all god claims, past and present, polytheistic and monotheistic, exist as claims is merely because our species fills in gaps. It is a flaw in our species perceptions.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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11-10-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(11-10-2014 06:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I just saw a debate recently where this point was made; I'll have to try to find it. The only response the theist had was that we were unable (and unworthy) to discern god's motives.

I couldn't find the debate (I think it was either Silverman or Barker debating but I've watched too many...)

I did find this: http://carm.org/perfect-god-would-not-ne...e-anything
The responses are:
#1: Nuh-uh!
#2: We can't understand god
#3: You're arrogant for questioning

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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11-10-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(11-10-2014 07:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 06:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I just saw a debate recently where this point was made; I'll have to try to find it. The only response the theist had was that we were unable (and unworthy) to discern god's motives.

I couldn't find the debate (I think it was either Silverman or Barker debating but I've watched too many...)

I did find this: http://carm.org/perfect-god-would-not-ne...e-anything
The responses are:
#1: Nuh-uh!
#2: We can't understand god
#3: You're arrogant for questioning

This comes from our species evolution of pattern seeking, and flawed gap filling when we do that. If a group thinks a pattern is working, that gap answer can and does create group survival and stability, but can be centered around a completely false claim. Much like the Ancient Egyptians were successful for 3,000 years centering their lives around their false polytheistic gods that are not real.

So when you challenge the social norms it is the species protecting their group. Dawkins explains this reaction in "The God Delusion" as the alpha male bird reacting violently to a subordinate, even if the subordinate is trying to help.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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11-10-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(11-10-2014 07:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 06:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I just saw a debate recently where this point was made; I'll have to try to find it. The only response the theist had was that we were unable (and unworthy) to discern god's motives.

I couldn't find the debate (I think it was either Silverman or Barker debating but I've watched too many...)

I did find this: http://carm.org/perfect-god-would-not-ne...e-anything
The responses are:
#1: Nuh-uh!
#2: We can't understand god
#3: You're arrogant for questioning

Read this on CARM:

Quote:Perfection means that God is complete, without error, totally wise, and self-sufficient. So, what in these qualities means God can't create the universe? Laughat
If he is COMPLETE, then there is no reason to add an IMPERFECT creation.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-10-2014, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2014 11:11 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(11-10-2014 09:08 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Read this on CARM:

Quote:Perfection means that God is complete, without error, totally wise, and self-sufficient. So, what in these qualities means God can't create the universe? Laughat
If he is COMPLETE, then there is no reason to add an IMPERFECT creation.

Exactly. Their response (in part):
Quote:Why can't God create for His own glory--which would be the greatest good for the most perfect being? Why can't God create people so He could love them?

Which completely misses the point that if god needs or wants to increase his glory or have something to love then he wasn't perfect. Of course, they are introducing the concept of "the most perfect being" which could mean that he isn't perfect, just the closest thing to it. It could also mean that they use the word "perfect" without really defining what they mean by it. Or maybe they are just doing a lot of hand-waving and hoping nobody actually thinks about it.

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13-10-2014, 07:59 AM
RE: Purpose/Pefection problem?
(10-10-2014 10:56 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  God is often defined as perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and having a purpose for the universe. However it occurs to me that such a being would have no need of a universe to accomplish whatever the purpose is. That is, an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being would skip this whole universe thing and go straight to whatever final result was desired.

Perhaps its final desired result is to simply make non-perfect being revel in their non-perfection.

Basically, the "he's malevolent" quadrant of the problem of evil.
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