Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
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07-05-2014, 08:00 AM
Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
What is the world coming to when, before Crimeans voted on seceding from Ukraine, it was Russia that said they would respect the will of the people and honor their choice, and it was the west who was adamant that no matter what the outcome of the vote, even if the Crimeans were 100% unanimous in a decision to secede, the will of the people and their right to self-determination would NEVER be tolerated.

How hypocritical that the US Secretary of State said preserving a country's existing "territorial integrity" was more important than a region's right to self-determination, given that his own country, the US, was formed exactly the same way--a declaration of independence to break away from England, just like Crimea's. Also, every time a region declares independence FROM a US enemy, the US demands "let the people choose and determine their own fate", but when a region has a democratic election and decides to go the other way, this calls for a military escalation and possible WWIII. So there is no respect for democracy if the rules are "vote the way I want and I'll honor the democratic process, vote the other way and I'll blow you to bits."

Now, same thing in Donetsk. Russia is calling for exactly the same thing that's codified in the US constitution and championed by Thomas Jefferson: local autonomy and the right to self-determination. And the Western-backed Ukrainian military is responding as Stalin did: "If you try to leave, we will use lethal force to make you stay".

It also shows how history always repeats itself because idiots never learn. The whole reason why most Western countries adopted a Federalist system with autonomous state/local jurisdictions was because it's inevitable that when the power gets concentrated at the Federal level the ruling majority (the pro-West Ukrainians) will pass laws to oppress unpopular minorities (the 20% of Ukrainians that identify as Russian), and so the only way for the minorities to escape the oppression will be through armed rebellion and civil war. What did the idiots in Kiev think was going to happen when they passed laws banning the Russian-speaking Ukrainians from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture?! Of course they would break away and it would lead to a civil war if they tried to make them stay. Dumb asses. Is it really worth war and loss of life to ban eastern Ukrainians from speaking Russian? Was it really so painful for those in Kiev to know that in a distant part of the country people spoke a different language?
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07-05-2014, 08:12 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 08:00 AM)frankksj Wrote:  What did the idiots in Kiev think was going to happen when they passed laws banning the Russian-speaking Ukrainians from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture?! Of course they would break away and it would lead to a civil war if they tried to make them stay. Dumb asses. Is it really worth war and loss of life to ban eastern Ukrainians from speaking Russian? Was it really so painful for those in Kiev to know that in a distant part of the country people spoke a different language?

I think I've missed that piece of news. Reference?

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07-05-2014, 08:52 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 08:00 AM)frankksj Wrote:  What is the world coming to when, before Crimeans voted on seceding from Ukraine, it was Russia that said they would respect the will of the people and honor their choice, and it was the west who was adamant that no matter what the outcome of the vote, even if the Crimeans were 100% unanimous in a decision to secede, the will of the people and their right to self-determination would NEVER be tolerated.

How hypocritical that the US Secretary of State said preserving a country's existing "territorial integrity" was more important than a region's right to self-determination, given that his own country, the US, was formed exactly the same way--a declaration of independence to break away from England, just like Crimea's. Also, every time a region declares independence FROM a US enemy, the US demands "let the people choose and determine their own fate", but when a region has a democratic election and decides to go the other way, this calls for a military escalation and possible WWIII. So there is no respect for democracy if the rules are "vote the way I want and I'll honor the democratic process, vote the other way and I'll blow you to bits."

Now, same thing in Donetsk. Russia is calling for exactly the same thing that's codified in the US constitution and championed by Thomas Jefferson: local autonomy and the right to self-determination. And the Western-backed Ukrainian military is responding as Stalin did: "If you try to leave, we will use lethal force to make you stay".

It also shows how history always repeats itself because idiots never learn. The whole reason why most Western countries adopted a Federalist system with autonomous state/local jurisdictions was because it's inevitable that when the power gets concentrated at the Federal level the ruling majority (the pro-West Ukrainians) will pass laws to oppress unpopular minorities (the 20% of Ukrainians that identify as Russian), and so the only way for the minorities to escape the oppression will be through armed rebellion and civil war. What did the idiots in Kiev think was going to happen when they passed laws banning the Russian-speaking Ukrainians from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture?! Of course they would break away and it would lead to a civil war if they tried to make them stay. Dumb asses. Is it really worth war and loss of life to ban eastern Ukrainians from speaking Russian? Was it really so painful for those in Kiev to know that in a distant part of the country people spoke a different language?

Why don't the pro-Russian Ukrainians just move to Russia?

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07-05-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
What a pathetic rant.

5 million Russians live in Germany aswell as several million Poles and Turks.
Millions of Russians also live in the Baltic states.
There are significant minority communities of Slovenians, Croats, Slovaks and Serbs throughout Austria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic and other countries.
There is a significant German minority in France which actualy makes up the majority of a French border state.
Every Scandinavian country shares a great minority population of a neigbouring Scandinavian country.
And the Greeks are spread out all accross the eastern mediteraine

Now imagine everyone could simply claim that they have the right to militarily redraw borders according to ethnic lines?

This kind of dribble is what caused WW1 and the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

So it is a simple fact, that for peace to be guaranteed in Europe - sovereign borders must remain untouchable and holy.

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07-05-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_oc...hoslovakia

Sounds familiar... Consider

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07-05-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
Frank, your views on this are based on a distortion of the truth. While the US is not wholly in the right, Putin is most assuredly in the wrong. Russia invaded a province of a neighboring nation with non-insigniad troops, expelled the local government, put pro-Russian warlords in charge of local services with support from Russian special forces, then held a vote for separation from Ukraine while Russian troops marched the streets and pro-Russian militias held government buildings. Interestingly, that vote had an extraordinarily high turnout in Sevastopol, over 60%; but less than 10% in parts of Crimea that still support Ukraine. This is a pattern that can indicate election fraud. In any event the measure passed, Crimea separated from Ukraine, and is now in the process of being annexed by Russia.

And now Russia is doing the same thing in Eastern Ukraine...


This isn't "the people" wanting to join Russia. This is Russia deciding to pull a Sudetenland and take what they can while everyone is else is recovering from war weariness over the Middle Eastern conflicts. But if this goes on, there will be a war with Russia...

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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07-05-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 08:00 AM)frankksj Wrote:  What is the world coming to when, before Crimeans voted on seceding from Ukraine, it was Russia that said they would respect the will of the people and honor their choice, and it was the west who was adamant that no matter what the outcome of the vote, even if the Crimeans were 100% unanimous in a decision to secede, the will of the people and their right to self-determination would NEVER be tolerated.

How hypocritical that the US Secretary of State said preserving a country's existing "territorial integrity" was more important than a region's right to self-determination, given that his own country, the US, was formed exactly the same way--a declaration of independence to break away from England, just like Crimea's. Also, every time a region declares independence FROM a US enemy, the US demands "let the people choose and determine their own fate", but when a region has a democratic election and decides to go the other way, this calls for a military escalation and possible WWIII. So there is no respect for democracy if the rules are "vote the way I want and I'll honor the democratic process, vote the other way and I'll blow you to bits."

Now, same thing in Donetsk. Russia is calling for exactly the same thing that's codified in the US constitution and championed by Thomas Jefferson: local autonomy and the right to self-determination. And the Western-backed Ukrainian military is responding as Stalin did: "If you try to leave, we will use lethal force to make you stay".

It also shows how history always repeats itself because idiots never learn. The whole reason why most Western countries adopted a Federalist system with autonomous state/local jurisdictions was because it's inevitable that when the power gets concentrated at the Federal level the ruling majority (the pro-West Ukrainians) will pass laws to oppress unpopular minorities (the 20% of Ukrainians that identify as Russian), and so the only way for the minorities to escape the oppression will be through armed rebellion and civil war. What did the idiots in Kiev think was going to happen when they passed laws banning the Russian-speaking Ukrainians from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture?! Of course they would break away and it would lead to a civil war if they tried to make them stay. Dumb asses. Is it really worth war and loss of life to ban eastern Ukrainians from speaking Russian? Was it really so painful for those in Kiev to know that in a distant part of the country people spoke a different language?

Why don't the pro-Russian Ukrainians just move to Russia?

Because they were born in the region, they consider it their home and believe integration into Russia would benefit the whole area.
They believe that by bringing Ukraine (or the Crimea or whatever) under Russian rule that that country/region would improve.
If you're given an option to improve your home land or abandon it people are gonna go for the improve option.

Plus there's the economic factor as well as the social factor to consider. Packing up your entire life and moving to a strange new place is much easier said than done I'm sure.

Quote:So it is a simple fact, that for peace to be guaranteed in Europe - sovereign borders must remain untouchable and holy.

So you're saying that we should start a war in order to keep the peace?
Yea, makes a lot of sense...Dodgy

This is stupid. If the people want change than why shouldn't they have that right?
Scotland votes for its independence soon, are you saying we should militarily stop them from doing that? No? Oh so what, it's only ok to let western friendly countries have the right to decide for themselves and countries that would become pro-Russia have no rights? I thought the west was suppose to be about democracy...? Yet on one side with have Scottish independence which nobody has a problem with. And on the other we have people wanting to integrate Crimea into Russia and suddenly we must "keep sovereign borders untouchable and holy"?.

I'm with Frank on this. The whole time I've followed this story it just screams hypocrisy.
It's all obvious politics. The simple truth is that nobody gives a fuck what the people of Crimea or Ukraine want. All that matters to the West is that Ukraine doesn't lose any land to Russia. And why? Because Russia is not to friendly with the West and they'd rather work with Ukraine because it benefits them more.
And the Russians aren't any better. They're obviously taking huge advantage of the situation to potentially integrate as much of Ukraine as they can for power and economic purposes.

As far as the west and Russia are concerned the only thing that matters is the resulting wealth and power to them. Nothing to do with democracy or what the Ukrainians want.

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07-05-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why don't the pro-Russian Ukrainians just move to Russia?

So when blacks demand equal rights, is your answer that they should just abandon their homes and property, forfeiting them to whites, and move back to Africa? Why is it any different when Kiev passes discriminatory laws to oppress an unpopular minority? John needs to just look this up on Wikipedia. It's not disputed that these anti-Russian-Ukrainian laws sparked the whole thing.

(07-05-2014 08:58 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  There is a significant German minority in France which actualy makes up the majority of a French border state.

Fine, let's assume that a French border state had 90% German-speakers, as was the case with Crimea. And let's assume that Paris passed laws to oppress them, such as banning them from speaking their native tongue and other anti-German laws. And let's say the people in that border-state held an election and voted to split away from France and join Germany. You're saying that you would condemn them for it and insist that Germany must force them to stay part of France and endure the oppression?! I'm quite sure that if the role was reversed, your position on the matter would reverse as well because it's not about principle and logic and morality, it's about “my side wins, your side loses”.

(07-05-2014 08:58 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  So it is a simple fact, that for peace to be guaranteed in Europe - sovereign borders must remain untouchable and holy.

Sure, untouchable BY EXTERNAL REGIMES. I condemn as strongly as anybody when one country invades another. What we're debating is if the people WITHIN A COUNTRY want to make change through a democratic process. I'm arguing that external regimes shouldn't interfere with their right to self-determination. What about you? With Ukraine having internal tension, are you adamant, as am I, that nobody else should take any military action in Ukraine, no foreign nation should cross Ukraine's border. Or, do you throw your “sovereign borders must remain untouchable and holy” rhetoric in the trash whenever a sovereign nation is doing something you don't like? In other words, we'll leave you alone and respect your borders as long as you do what we tell you to.

(07-05-2014 10:39 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Russia invaded a province of a neighboring nation with non-insigniad troops, expelled the local government, put pro-Russian warlords in charge of local services with support from Russian special forces, then held a vote for separation from Ukraine while Russian troops marched the streets and pro-Russian militias held government buildings. Interestingly, that vote had an extraordinarily high turnout in Sevastopol, over 60%; but less than 10% in parts of Crimea that still support Ukraine. This is a pattern that can indicate election fraud. In any event the measure passed, Crimea separated from Ukraine, and is now in the process of being annexed by Russia.

This didn't happen. IF Russia had done this, then the West would have rightly said that the UN should place election monitors in Crimea to ensure that the vote on succession was fair and unbiased. And, given Putin's very public stand that he would respect the will of the Crimeans, it would have been politically impossible for Putin to resist UN election monitors. So the vote would have been an obvious “no” if, as you claim, Crimea was actually “invaded by warlords” who overthrew their local government. But the opposite happened. The West didn't call for a monitored, fair vote. They said that no matter what the outcome of the vote they would NEVER respect the Crimean people's right to self-determination. That stance was, effectively, an admission that the West knew fully well the people of Crimea wanted to join Russia and viewed Russia as a protector—not an invader.
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07-05-2014, 11:27 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 10:46 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why don't the pro-Russian Ukrainians just move to Russia?

Because they were born in the region, they consider it their home and believe integration into Russia would benefit the whole area.
They believe that by bringing Ukraine (or the Crimea or whatever) under Russian rule that that country/region would improve.
If you're given an option to improve your home land or abandon it people are gonna go for the improve option.

Plus there's the economic factor as well as the social factor to consider. Packing up your entire life and moving to a strange new place is much easier said than done I'm sure.

Right over your head.Yes

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07-05-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(07-05-2014 08:58 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  So it is a simple fact, that for peace to be guaranteed in Europe - sovereign borders must remain untouchable and holy.
Alternatively, people could stop believing the lie that they are Russians, Germans, Poles, Turks, Slovenians, Croats, Slovaks, Serbs, French, Scandinavian, Greeks and all that crap, and begin understanding that we are all human beings. Countries are tools for human exploitation.

I can understand that theists try to declare things holy, but atheists?
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