Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
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10-05-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 09:56 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That isn't what I said. That isn't what anyone said.

IMO you vacillate and waffle on these issues, refusing to take a specific position, so that no matter how the thread continues, you can claim you were right all along. I will try yet again to pin you down....

Assume a province in Ukraine, say Donetsk, holds a fair, democratic vote on secession, and a clear majority vote to secede, however the national government opposes it...

Q: Do you, personally, feel that Ukraine's national government should accept this move and negotiate in good faith the details, like Ukrainian-owned property in the region?

Q: What do you believe has been the position of the US, Germany, France and the UK?


Please, none of the usual excuses like 'this is nuanced' which allow to avoid taking a stand so you can always claim you were right all along. Grow a pair and go on the record with your views.

That is not the discussion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-05-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  IMO you vacillate and waffle on these issues, refusing to take a specific position, so that no matter how the thread continues, you can claim you were right all along. I will try yet again to pin you down....

That's because you are pathologically terrified of ambiguity, and whenever anyone doesn't buy into your reductivist pigeonholing you compulsively accuse them of being "evasive".

(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Assume a province in Ukraine, say Donetsk, holds a fair, democratic vote on secession, and a clear majority vote to secede, however the national government opposes it...

That assumption moves us far, far from present reality. But, okay.

(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Q: Do you, personally, feel that Ukraine's national government should accept this move and negotiate in good faith the details, like Ukrainian-owned property in the region?

Yes. I have never made any statement to the contrary.

Such would be readily apparent to anyone capable of an honest reading of my previous posts.

(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Q: What do you believe has been the position of the US, Germany, France and the UK?

That the current situation - one wholly incompatible with your above oversimplified abstraction - is unacceptable, undemocratic, illegitimate, and illegal.

Their stated position is and has ever been that unilateral action is not acceptable. A facetious response such as yours - "buh, but what if it's 100% unanimous?" is nothing more than fantasy.

(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Please, none of the usual excuses like 'this is nuanced' which allow to avoid taking a stand so you can always claim you were right all along. Grow a pair and go on the record with your views.

That you are so simple-minded and obsessive that you cannot admit of any degree of subtlety in any situation ever is not my problem. It is yours, and it inevitably puts you on a collision course with reality.

Consider the above - you present an utterly abstracted, wholly irrelevant hypothetical under the apparent impression that it is in any way meaningful.

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10-05-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
(10-05-2014 12:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 12:08 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Q: Do you, personally, feel that Ukraine's national government should accept this move and negotiate in good faith the details, like Ukrainian-owned property in the region?

Yes. I have never made any statement to the contrary.

Fine, then we're in complete agreement. So why then do you waste your time attacking my posts if, in fact, you agree anyway? Nowhere in my posts did I comment about who was directing the non-insignia'd troops in Ukraine or if it was biasing the votes. That wasn't my point. My point was that 2 sides were presented:

1. That each region in Ukraine should have the right to vote and determine their own fate, including seceding.

vs.

2. That the 'territorial integrity' of Ukraine is non-negotiable and any vote on secession, no matter how unbiased and representative, will not be tolerated.

I, obviously, endorse #1. And, at least on paper, so does Russia. So would Thomas Jefferson and the US's Founders. Thus I found it so bizarre that so many theoretically "pro-Federalist" Western leaders took position #2. You rave and rant and in the end concede that you, too, endorse #1 and disassociate yourself with those, like @TheGermansAreComing, who endorse #2.

A healthy debate where people make the case for their opposing views is great. But, imo you're not trying to make a point. You just like to waste time bickering. Which is why this grows so tiring.
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13-05-2014, 01:02 AM
RE: Putin the new Thomas Jefferson, the west the new Stalin?!
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