Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
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20-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
Anyone here have any documents, texts, graphs, proofs of any kind, that can prove that in Quantum Mechanics, events happen without cause? Like particles appearing and disappearing out of existence in the emptiness of space, or other phenomena. I know little about Quantum Mechanics, am currently debating someone who wants me to prove that events can happen without a cause(therefore the universe could be created without cause aka no intelligent design needed).
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20-11-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
I've read about some retro-causality experiments, but nothing about something coming out of nothing.
Unless you take into account the virtual particles that pop into existence from quantum vacuum, but I doubt anyone besides a physicist would call that "nothing" in the terms of the philosophical concept of nothing.

So no, there's no proof that something can come from nothing in the same way we don't have proof that something cannot come from nothing. It's still unknown :/

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20-11-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
Well that seems to contradict Lawrence Krauss
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20-11-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
(20-11-2012 01:15 PM)Nova Wrote:  Well that seems to contradict Lawrence Krauss

(20-11-2012 12:59 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Unless you take into account the virtual particles that pop into existence from quantum vacuum, but I doubt anyone besides a physicist would call that "nothing" in the terms of the philosophical concept of nothing.

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20-11-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
I'm having a hard time comprehending the 'virtual' part, and how that does not prove that stuff appears and disappears from existence.
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20-11-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
(20-11-2012 12:44 PM)Nova Wrote:  Anyone here have any documents, texts, graphs, proofs of any kind, that can prove that in Quantum Mechanics, events happen without cause? Like particles appearing and disappearing out of existence in the emptiness of space, or other phenomena. I know little about Quantum Mechanics, am currently debating someone who wants me to prove that events can happen without a cause(therefore the universe could be created without cause aka no intelligent design needed).
In his writings and presentations, the Physicist Lawrence Krauss shows that what we used to believe was "Nothing" (i.e., a vacuum devoid of energy or mass detectable by ordinary means) is actually something with mass-energy that can be measured. He refers to this as dark matter and dark energy and points out that most of the mass and energy of the universe is composed of dark matter and dark energy. This is a fact. This dark matter-energy has been measured and verified by observing the lensing effect of this matter and energy as it refracts light from distant galaxies.

So, it is safe to say that there is always "Something" throughout the universe instead of "Nothing" - even if we can't directly detect it by means photodetectors or scales. If 20-years ago, you had asked a Christian Apoologist to describe "Nothing" and he would have given an example of a Vacuum without mass or energy at absolute zero, then he would have been wrong - for there would have been "something", for even empty space as we know it contains "Something".

So....how can anyone say that oppositley-charged particles that appear than dissapear actually come from "Nothing"? No one can at this point. We just don't have enough physical evidence to say one way or another.

Nevertheless, just because we don't know does not make it right for some Christian Apologist to come along and say "God did it" because he has no proof of that either. Much less will the Christian try - or should try - to offer an alternative explanation of the Universe considering the piss-poor track record of the Biblical Book of Genesis that stated that the universe was made of water and that the Sun, Moon and Stars were held in the vault which seperated the waters from the land. Christianity had it opportunity to explain the nature and origins of the Universe, and they blew it.
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20-11-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
That was in depth and explained it well, I am no longer confused. Thank you.

Btw this person is a muslim, and I'm basically arguing the First Cause argument. He says god is infinite, I'm trying to prove that the universe can come from nothing, ie does not need intelligent design. Of course now I have to backtrack on that hardline approach i had :/
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20-11-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
(20-11-2012 01:33 PM)Nova Wrote:  I'm having a hard time comprehending the 'virtual' part, and how that does not prove that stuff appears and disappears from existence.
They're called virtual because they seem to exist in every form or shape EXCEPT they don't, they're mathematical constructs that explain phenomena but they aren't observed directly... it's kind of convoluted and I can't understand it fully http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

They don't appear and disappear from existence because we don't know where they come from so we can't say they just appear, they may come from nothing or from something we haven't detected yet.

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20-11-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

See Laurence Krauss' ; A Universe from Nothing.
Since gravity can have a negative value, the total energy of the universe is "0".

At one point, in the universe there were equal amounts of matter, and anti matter. Is that "something' ?

The question is not "what caused the universe" ?
The question is "what put Causality" in place, and how did that happen if causality was not already in the structure of Reality" ?

The "First Cause" argument is really only "proximate cause". If you're arguing with a theist, you can say that an omnipotent god could have created an infinite number of of machines or beings which could cause universes.

It's a "god of the gaps", or and Argument from Ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

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Political skeptic .. if there is a bad reason something bad might have happened, you can bet your ass, that's why it happened.
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20-11-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: Quantum Mechanics proof of events without cause
Lawrence Krauss says something can come from nothing. That's good enough for me, for now. This stuff is still in its infancy, we'll know more in coming years.

Carl Sagan said it best:

If the general picture, however, of a Big Bang followed by an expanding Universe is correct, what happened before that? Was the Universe devoid of all matter and then the matter suddenly somehow created, how did that happen? In many cultures, the customary answer is that a God or Gods created the Universe out of nothing. But if we wish to pursue this question courageously, we must of course ask the next question: where did God come from? If we decide that this is an unanswerable question, why not save a step and conclude that the origin of the Universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that God always existed, why not save a step, and conclude that the Universe always existed? That there's no need for a creation, it was always here. These are not easy questions. Cosmology brings us face to face with the deepest mysteries, questions that were once treated only in religion and myth.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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