Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
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09-09-2015, 11:05 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(09-09-2015 12:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Quantum mechanics does not posit that events are truly random. You don't know what you are talking about. Irreducible randomness is just an interpretation.

I don't have much time, but I'm gonna respond to this.

Yes, quantum mechanics posits events are truly random. Or, at the very least, the negation of "randomness" leads to very bizarre interpretations.

This is precisely because of the EPR paradox. I haven't followed the thread closely enough, but the EPR paradox is a paradox inasmuch as following the logic of quantum mechanics led to counter-intuitive conclusion, which is that if an entangled partner is measures spin up, the corresponding partner is measured to be spin down instantaneously. Einstein erroneously concluded that the only logical explanation is that the state of the entangled particles is pre-determined and thus the measurement of spin up and spin down happens post factem (and as such, the entangled partner isn't measured to be spin up instantaneously).

However, Bell's Inequality provided us an experimental proof. The mathematics of how spin wavefunctions is messy, so read here if you want details. Long-story short is that if we assume that electrons are either spin up OR spin-down, then we find a violation of Bell's Inequality. The issue is with the premise--spin up and spin down isn't a binary state, but rather, an electron can be spin up, spin down, or a superposition of spin up and spin down (since the assumption that spin is binary). However, we never measure a superposition state.

*I really do not have time to explain why the instantenous measurement of spin up and spin down does not violate relativity. The notion "nothing" travels faster than light is a misnomer; it's that information cannot travel faster than light. There's plenty of discussion on this technicality, so I'll just refer to this.

I've been sloppy in my use of "spin up" and "spin down." Really, I need to specific direction--spin up and spin down in the z-direction, spin up and spin down in the y-direction, and so on. This gets annoying, so I'm going to go ahead and call these properties hard and soft (spin up/down in direction A) and black and white (spin up/down in direction B). We can measure the spins of an electron using a Stern-Garlech set-up, but let's just treat it as some box that tells you if an electron is hard/soft or black/white etc.

If I put a random electron into a hard/soft box, half come up hard and half come out soft. If I then put half of those hard electrons into a black/white box, half come out black and half come out white. LIkewise, if I put in black electrons into a hard/soft box, I get out half black and half white. If, however, I use a complicated set-up like the one here on page 3, the net "color" of the electron remains unchanged. Which means if I selected black electrons to go into this set-up, I will get only black electrons out (notice that if black electrons were deterministically half hard and half soft, we should get half hard and half soft out). If you accept superposition and think of black creating a superposition of hard and soft, this isn't an issue (when the electrons recombine, you get a "superposition" of hard and soft again, AKA black). This is exactly what the mathematically theory of spins would predict. We've done these experiments; I've heard of it as the two-paths experiment.

So how does this show randomness? The existence of the superposition principle seems evidence both from two-baths and bell's inequality BUT we never observe superposition. The conclusion is taken to be that an electron "collapses" randomly into either a hard or soft state when we measure for hardness/softness.

Why do we think we can't measure a superposition? Let's go back to the double-slit experiment. If we do not measure the electron and let it take its course without measuring its position, we get a diffraction pattern similar to a light double-slit experiment. The "difference" is that actually measuring the diffraction pattern takes time, since we measure the position of the electron at a screen *behind* the double slit, so we have to measure an awful lot of electrons. Point in case, a light double slit looks like [Image: lecture24.pdf], but the electron double slit looks like this. But if we try to measure the position of the electron before it goes through the slit, we don't get a diffraction pattern. Only if we let the electron go through the slit without measuring it we get diffraction pattern.

The interpretation is this: the incoming electron is in a superposition state. If we measure the electron, we find it going through either slit 1 or slit 2. Subsequently, it goes through either slit 1 or slit 2; but in the superposition state, it goes through both.

The randomness is thus: every measured superposition state returns a particular state (called stationary state, eigenstates, or characteristic states); this state cannot be determined ahead of time (otherwise spin up/down would be binary, and would satisfy Bell's Inequality) and superposition states cannot be measured. The most logical conclusion is that quantum mechanics is random.

Yes, there are some interpretations that deny the existence of superposition (and by-step randomness entirely), but they often posit things like the existence of many-worlds. That is, if a quantum state is superposition A and B then upon measurement, both universes where A and B are realized at the same-time (but then, for some reason, we collectively only witness universe A). This done, effectively, by introduction a global variable (i.e. the universal wavefunction)--consistent with the previous analysis but ultimately deterministic. In fact, the opposite reasoning works too--the existence of a universal wavefunction implies the existence of many-worlds, which is about the only reason the many-worlds has gained any sort of traction. It's the sort of "well, maybe quantum mechanics doesn't have randomness" that... basically makes the way of the universe so fucking clear that bringing God into it is like using bringing god to fill in a gap only to realize the gap has already been filled.

Anyway, I probably said enough on the subject and have more important things to do.
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10-09-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(08-09-2015 09:53 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 08:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It promotes survival, (of the parasites). Yes

We can argue if a hangnail is excessive or not but that would be a waste of time. "Excessive" is an opinion....It is not a fact of nature. Arguing about it is silly because nobody can be right or wrong.

If the pain and suffering serve no purpose, then it is clearly excessive.

To deny that is to be as dense as lead.

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10-09-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(09-09-2015 10:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Except that they are not.

Random means there is not predictable or discernible pattern.

That is the definition of pseudo-random.

Quote:It does not mean there is no pattern.

Actually it means precisely that.

Quote:Randomness is and has always been a function of ignorance.

No, that is the definition of 'apparently random'.

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10-09-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
I sees gawd!

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10-09-2015, 10:06 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(09-09-2015 11:05 PM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Quantum mechanics does not posit that events are truly random. You don't know what you are talking about. Irreducible randomness is just an interpretation.

I don't have much time, but I'm gonna respond to this.

Yes, quantum mechanics posits events are truly random. Or, at the very least, the negation of "randomness" leads to very bizarre interpretations.

This is precisely because of the EPR paradox. I haven't followed the thread closely enough, but the EPR paradox is a paradox inasmuch as following the logic of quantum mechanics led to counter-intuitive conclusion, which is that if an entangled partner is measures spin up, the corresponding partner is measured to be spin down instantaneously. Einstein erroneously concluded that the only logical explanation is that the state of the entangled particles is pre-determined and thus the measurement of spin up and spin down happens post factem (and as such, the entangled partner isn't measured to be spin up instantaneously).

However, Bell's Inequality provided us an experimental proof. The mathematics of how spin wavefunctions is messy, so read here if you want details. Long-story short is that if we assume that electrons are either spin up OR spin-down, then we find a violation of Bell's Inequality. The issue is with the premise--spin up and spin down isn't a binary state, but rather, an electron can be spin up, spin down, or a superposition of spin up and spin down (since the assumption that spin is binary). However, we never measure a superposition state.

*I really do not have time to explain why the instantenous measurement of spin up and spin down does not violate relativity. The notion "nothing" travels faster than light is a misnomer; it's that information cannot travel faster than light. There's plenty of discussion on this technicality, so I'll just refer to this.

I've been sloppy in my use of "spin up" and "spin down." Really, I need to specific direction--spin up and spin down in the z-direction, spin up and spin down in the y-direction, and so on. This gets annoying, so I'm going to go ahead and call these properties hard and soft (spin up/down in direction A) and black and white (spin up/down in direction B). We can measure the spins of an electron using a Stern-Garlech set-up, but let's just treat it as some box that tells you if an electron is hard/soft or black/white etc.

If I put a random electron into a hard/soft box, half come up hard and half come out soft. If I then put half of those hard electrons into a black/white box, half come out black and half come out white. LIkewise, if I put in black electrons into a hard/soft box, I get out half black and half white. If, however, I use a complicated set-up like the one here on page 3, the net "color" of the electron remains unchanged. Which means if I selected black electrons to go into this set-up, I will get only black electrons out (notice that if black electrons were deterministically half hard and half soft, we should get half hard and half soft out). If you accept superposition and think of black creating a superposition of hard and soft, this isn't an issue (when the electrons recombine, you get a "superposition" of hard and soft again, AKA black). This is exactly what the mathematically theory of spins would predict. We've done these experiments; I've heard of it as the two-paths experiment.

So how does this show randomness? The existence of the superposition principle seems evidence both from two-baths and bell's inequality BUT we never observe superposition. The conclusion is taken to be that an electron "collapses" randomly into either a hard or soft state when we measure for hardness/softness.

Why do we think we can't measure a superposition? Let's go back to the double-slit experiment. If we do not measure the electron and let it take its course without measuring its position, we get a diffraction pattern similar to a light double-slit experiment. The "difference" is that actually measuring the diffraction pattern takes time, since we measure the position of the electron at a screen *behind* the double slit, so we have to measure an awful lot of electrons. Point in case, a light double slit looks like [Image: lecture24.pdf], but the electron double slit looks like this. But if we try to measure the position of the electron before it goes through the slit, we don't get a diffraction pattern. Only if we let the electron go through the slit without measuring it we get diffraction pattern.

The interpretation is this: the incoming electron is in a superposition state. If we measure the electron, we find it going through either slit 1 or slit 2. Subsequently, it goes through either slit 1 or slit 2; but in the superposition state, it goes through both.

The randomness is thus: every measured superposition state returns a particular state (called stationary state, eigenstates, or characteristic states); this state cannot be determined ahead of time (otherwise spin up/down would be binary, and would satisfy Bell's Inequality) and superposition states cannot be measured. The most logical conclusion is that quantum mechanics is random.

Yes, there are some interpretations that deny the existence of superposition (and by-step randomness entirely), but they often posit things like the existence of many-worlds. That is, if a quantum state is superposition A and B then upon measurement, both universes where A and B are realized at the same-time (but then, for some reason, we collectively only witness universe A). This done, effectively, by introduction a global variable (i.e. the universal wavefunction)--consistent with the previous analysis but ultimately deterministic. In fact, the opposite reasoning works too--the existence of a universal wavefunction implies the existence of many-worlds, which is about the only reason the many-worlds has gained any sort of traction. It's the sort of "well, maybe quantum mechanics doesn't have randomness" that... basically makes the way of the universe so fucking clear that bringing God into it is like using bringing god to fill in a gap only to realize the gap has already been filled.

Anyway, I probably said enough on the subject and have more important things to do.

I've explained it to him previously. It doesn't matter. He doesn't give a shit.

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10-09-2015, 10:21 PM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2015 10:30 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(10-09-2015 10:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I've explained it to him previously. It doesn't matter. He doesn't give a shit.

So I take you agree with him....that Quantum mechanics posits irreducible randomness? Let us know your position. My position is that irreducible randomness is a conclusion, an interpretation(an incorrect one).....not an axiom or an assumption.

Do you see he goes on to contradict himself in his post?
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10-09-2015, 10:32 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(10-09-2015 10:21 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 10:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I've explained it to him previously. It doesn't matter. He doesn't give a shit.

So I take you agree with him....that Quantum mechanics posits irreducible randomness? Let us know your position.

Do you see he goes on to contradict himself in his post?

The universe is probabilistic, not deterministic.

As to its every last detail, I don't know. You seize the opportunity to shove God up your own ass rather than let things lie unbearably empty. I suppose that's your prerogative, but I fail to see where anyone else ought to give any shits about what makes your ignorant ass feel better.

He presents no contradictions as such. But if you perceive one, do share it with the class...

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10-09-2015, 10:43 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(10-09-2015 10:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The universe is probabilistic, not deterministic.

As to its every last detail, I don't know. You seize the opportunity to shove God up your own ass rather than let things lie unbearably empty. I suppose that's your prerogative, but I fail to see where anyone else ought to give any shits about what makes your ignorant ass feel better.

He presents no contradictions as such. But if you perceive one, do share it with the class...

Can you answer the question asked please. Do you agree that Quantum Mechanics posits irreducible randomness?
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10-09-2015, 10:43 PM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(10-09-2015 10:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The universe is probabilistic, not deterministic.

As to its every last detail, I don't know. You seize the opportunity to shove God up your own ass rather than let things lie unbearably empty. I suppose that's your prerogative, but I fail to see where anyone else ought to give any shits about what makes your ignorant ass feel better.

He presents no contradictions as such. But if you perceive one, do share it with the class...

Can you answer the question asked please. Do you agree that Quantum Mechanics posits irreducible randomness?
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11-09-2015, 03:28 AM
RE: Quantum and Digital Physics argument for the existence of God.
(10-09-2015 10:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 10:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The universe is probabilistic, not deterministic.

As to its every last detail, I don't know. You seize the opportunity to shove God up your own ass rather than let things lie unbearably empty. I suppose that's your prerogative, but I fail to see where anyone else ought to give any shits about what makes your ignorant ass feel better.

He presents no contradictions as such. But if you perceive one, do share it with the class...

Can you answer the question asked please. Do you agree that Quantum Mechanics posits irreducible randomness?

It may or may not be - we don't yet know. To base your argument on the assumption that it isn't is circular.

"One intriguing aspect of random processes is that it is hard to know whether a process is truly random. An observer may suspect that there is some "key" that unlocks the message. This is a foundation of superstition, as well as a motivation for discovery in science and mathematics."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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