Question about death to Atheists.
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12-02-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
(12-02-2017 11:46 AM)Vera Wrote:  “I sit beside the fire and think
Of people long ago
And people that will see a world
That I shall never know.”

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-02-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
Loom, I’m not really holding my breath, but it’ll be nice Shy

FullCircle, that’s about all that’s left of my once immense love for Tolkien, I’m afraid. Ever since I emerged from the fog of religion, I just… don’t know, haven’t been able to feel the same about him (not saying they are necessarily related, but I do think once I stopped believing in magic and souls and deities, I just… lost my capacity for appreciating fantasy…)

Now, *the* one quote about death that has stuck in my mind for ages (pretty sure I’ve posted it before) is by the great Tom Stoppard (Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead is still one of my most favourite works. And a rare occasion of a film doing the written work justice): “Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one, a moment, in childhood, when it first occurred to you that you don’t go on forever. It must have been shattering, stamped into one’s memory. And yet I can’t remember it. It never occurred to me at all. We must be born with an intuition of mortality. Before we know the word for it, before we know that there are words, out we come, bloodied and squalling… with the knowledge that for all the points of the compass, there’s only one direction and time is its only measure.”

Yes, the knowledge of our own mortality torments and weighs us down… but it can also liberate us and be the driving force behind some of our most beautiful works... Case in point...

And yeah, I know I’m going to sound even more pretentious than I usually do, but I just love this, music *and* words (even more beautiful in Italian, of course…)

The Passacaglia of Life (or Homo Fugit Velut Umbra: Man Flees Like a Shadow)

Oh how wrong you are
to think that the years
will never end.
We must die.

Life is a dream,
that seams so sweet,
but joy is all too brief.
We must die.
Of no avail is medicine,
of no use is quinine,
we cannot be cured.
We must die.

Worthless are lamentations,
threats, bravado
produced by our courage.
We must die.
No learned doctrine
can find the words
to calm this boldness
We must die.

There is no means
to untie this knot,
it is useless to flee.
We must die.
It is the same for everyone,
a wily man cannot
shield himself from the blow,
We must die.

Cruel Death
is unfaithful to all,
and shames everyone.
Die we must.
And yet, o madness
o ravings,
it seems like lying to oneself.
Die we must.

We die singing,
we die playing
the cittern, the bagpipe, yet
die we must.
We die dancing,
drinking, eating;
with this carrion,
die we must.

Youths, children,
and all men
must end in dust.
We must die.
The healthy, the sick,
the brave, the defenceless,
must all make an end,
We must die.
And when you are least
thinking of it, in your breat,
all comes to an end,
We must die.
If you do not think of this,
you have lost your senses,
you are dead and you can say:
We must die.




"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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12-02-2017, 02:06 PM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
Knowing that I'm going to die is a comfort to me. This won't go on for ever. I don't want it to. I never have, as far as I remember, even before I was depressed.

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12-02-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
(09-02-2017 07:13 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  Hi again.

On my last post about Near Death experiences, I received some interesting and insightful responses. I want to thank everyone who gave me an answer for that. The question I am about to ask may seem as though it is slightly biased. However, if you can, please slightly make an exception and look past the bias Tongue

So at my church, I recently talked to an older woman who told me that while she was in the hospital with her husband (who was terminally ill), she held his hand. She said that while he was lying in his hospital bed, that she saw some white looking entity leaving his body. She said it almost looked like his physical body was a shell, and out of the shell came this white, transparent 'spirit' form of him. She said that soon afterwards doctors had examined him, and reported that he was in fact dead. I could tell that this lady was being sincere in what she was telling me. Later that day I got home, and found a multitude of different stories which were similar to hers.

At first I thought, maybe it is just a coincidence, then I remembered something else:

My mom has repeatedly had this phenomenon where she will wake up one morning feeling "strange", she will say that she dreamed about a loved one, and that she knows something bad happened to this person. About 10-15 times, it has happened where she will get a call very soon in the next day or two saying that a person she knows (usually the person she dreamed about) has died.

Now, these two phenomenons that I touched on will likely be dismissed by most, but I want to know, how can some atheists on here be so sure that there is nothing after death when there are so many unexplained things? Although some people may be lying to get attention, I am sure that the two examples I gave were not lies. Even if that means there is another explanation we do not know about. How would you atheists react to some of these things if you were to give the claimer the benefit of the doubt that he/she was not lying?

Do you remember what your existence was like before you were born?

No?

Why not???

If you're "eternal" - you would.

But - you're not - and you're not going to be.

You're finite.

When you die - it'll be lights out, end of show - no reboot, no respawn, no Jebus come and save me.

Your existence will cease, it will be done, over, fini, kaput.

Reality, will go on.

....

What prevents you from understanding that? Ego? Fear? Desperation?

....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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12-02-2017, 04:00 PM
Question about death to Atheists.
(09-02-2017 07:13 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  My mom has repeatedly had this phenomenon where she will wake up one morning feeling "strange", she will say that she dreamed about a loved one, and that she knows something bad happened to this person. About 10-15 times, it has happened where she will get a call very soon in the next day or two saying that a person she knows (usually the person she dreamed about) has died.

Confirmation bias.

What about all the times she dreamed about something and it didn't happen? She dismissed it. When it did happen then she found her proof.
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14-02-2017, 11:18 AM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
(12-02-2017 03:10 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 07:13 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  Hi again.

On my last post about Near Death experiences, I received some interesting and insightful responses. I want to thank everyone who gave me an answer for that. The question I am about to ask may seem as though it is slightly biased. However, if you can, please slightly make an exception and look past the bias Tongue

So at my church, I recently talked to an older woman who told me that while she was in the hospital with her husband (who was terminally ill), she held his hand. She said that while he was lying in his hospital bed, that she saw some white looking entity leaving his body. She said it almost looked like his physical body was a shell, and out of the shell came this white, transparent 'spirit' form of him. She said that soon afterwards doctors had examined him, and reported that he was in fact dead. I could tell that this lady was being sincere in what she was telling me. Later that day I got home, and found a multitude of different stories which were similar to hers.

At first I thought, maybe it is just a coincidence, then I remembered something else:

My mom has repeatedly had this phenomenon where she will wake up one morning feeling "strange", she will say that she dreamed about a loved one, and that she knows something bad happened to this person. About 10-15 times, it has happened where she will get a call very soon in the next day or two saying that a person she knows (usually the person she dreamed about) has died.

Now, these two phenomenons that I touched on will likely be dismissed by most, but I want to know, how can some atheists on here be so sure that there is nothing after death when there are so many unexplained things? Although some people may be lying to get attention, I am sure that the two examples I gave were not lies. Even if that means there is another explanation we do not know about. How would you atheists react to some of these things if you were to give the claimer the benefit of the doubt that he/she was not lying?

Do you remember what your existence was like before you were born?

No?

Why not???

If you're "eternal" - you would.

But - you're not - and you're not going to be.

You're finite.

When you die - it'll be lights out, end of show - no reboot, no respawn, no Jebus come and save me.

Your existence will cease, it will be done, over, fini, kaput.

Reality, will go on.

....

What prevents you from understanding that? Ego? Fear? Desperation?

....
No I actually hope that nothing happens when I die because I fear that there might be a negative afterlife lol. I just can't get past people saying they nearly died and saw hell
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14-02-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
(09-02-2017 07:13 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  Hi again.

On my last post about Near Death experiences, I received some interesting and insightful responses. I want to thank everyone who gave me an answer for that. The question I am about to ask may seem as though it is slightly biased. However, if you can, please slightly make an exception and look past the bias Tongue

So at my church, I recently talked to an older woman who told me that while she was in the hospital with her husband (who was terminally ill), she held his hand. She said that while he was lying in his hospital bed, that she saw some white looking entity leaving his body. She said it almost looked like his physical body was a shell, and out of the shell came this white, transparent 'spirit' form of him. She said that soon afterwards doctors had examined him, and reported that he was in fact dead. I could tell that this lady was being sincere in what she was telling me. Later that day I got home, and found a multitude of different stories which were similar to hers.

At first I thought, maybe it is just a coincidence, then I remembered something else:

My mom has repeatedly had this phenomenon where she will wake up one morning feeling "strange", she will say that she dreamed about a loved one, and that she knows something bad happened to this person. About 10-15 times, it has happened where she will get a call very soon in the next day or two saying that a person she knows (usually the person she dreamed about) has died.

Now, these two phenomenons that I touched on will likely be dismissed by most, but I want to know, how can some atheists on here be so sure that there is nothing after death when there are so many unexplained things? Although some people may be lying to get attention, I am sure that the two examples I gave were not lies. Even if that means there is another explanation we do not know about. How would you atheists react to some of these things if you were to give the claimer the benefit of the doubt that he/she was not lying?

Because the brain plays funny tricks when stressed due to lack of sleep or the grief of losing someone. I've "seen" some weird and unexplainable things too...well, unexplainable until you start thinking about them logically and rationally.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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17-02-2017, 06:12 AM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
(09-02-2017 07:13 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  Hi again.

On my last post about Near Death experiences, I received some interesting and insightful responses. I want to thank everyone who gave me an answer for that. The question I am about to ask may seem as though it is slightly biased. However, if you can, please slightly make an exception and look past the bias Tongue

So at my church, I recently talked to an older woman who told me that while she was in the hospital with her husband (who was terminally ill), she held his hand. She said that while he was lying in his hospital bed, that she saw some white looking entity leaving his body. She said it almost looked like his physical body was a shell, and out of the shell came this white, transparent 'spirit' form of him. She said that soon afterwards doctors had examined him, and reported that he was in fact dead. I could tell that this lady was being sincere in what she was telling me. Later that day I got home, and found a multitude of different stories which were similar to hers.

At first I thought, maybe it is just a coincidence, then I remembered something else:

My mom has repeatedly had this phenomenon where she will wake up one morning feeling "strange", she will say that she dreamed about a loved one, and that she knows something bad happened to this person. About 10-15 times, it has happened where she will get a call very soon in the next day or two saying that a person she knows (usually the person she dreamed about) has died.

Now, these two phenomenons that I touched on will likely be dismissed by most, but I want to know, how can some atheists on here be so sure that there is nothing after death when there are so many unexplained things? Although some people may be lying to get attention, I am sure that the two examples I gave were not lies. Even if that means there is another explanation we do not know about. How would you atheists react to some of these things if you were to give the claimer the benefit of the doubt that he/she was not lying?

Anecdotes are boring. Give us something better. Set up an experiment and record data. Or you could make a logical argument for the existence of an afterlife. Save the tales about visible spirits for tacky horror films. Testimony is the least reputable form of justification in this instance.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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17-02-2017, 06:38 AM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
Original post refers to eye-witness testimony. No other evidence than that. Yet we know humans are extremely bad eye-witnesses. I myself have provably hallucinated on occasions, not while on drugs either. Your old lady who saw a spirit - she was under extreme emotional stress, she was predisposed to think in those terms. Under what circumstances would she *not* have seen a ghost?

She may be (is likely to be) entirely sincere and yet mistaken. Unless you've got something more than that as evidence for the existence of ghosts, you don't need to worry.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-02-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Question about death to Atheists.
The problem with experiments in this area is that you have to set up a test, and then go around clubbing people almost to death to collect your data.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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