Question about flood
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16-03-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 10:23 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  What is your evidence for that?

I believe there is good historical evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus...which points in the direction of Christianity, which has a doctrine of "final judgement".

There is absolutely no good historical evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus. None whatsoever.

And the utter lack of corroborating evidence for the stories in the Gospels is quite damning.

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16-03-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 10:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 07:15 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, you're saying free will and judgment aren't necessary? Why does YHWH bother with them, then?

The free will is because God wants us to love him because we want to, not because he programmed us to.

The judgement is like our "graduation" day. If you pass, you graduate to bigger and better things. If you fail, you are left behind.

God cannot do other than "program" us. He knows the outcome of everything that will happen upon making decisions like how to make us (omniscient). He chooses the parameters of construction, could have chosen other ones, and knew the ones he picked led to evil. We're exactly as evil as he made us. He could have made us _more_ evil, too.

You mention objective morality somewhere. What do you mean by objective and how does that relate to morality? Wouldn't god based morality simply be god's opinion, and he has the power to enforce his rules, just like you see here on Earth with societies?
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16-03-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is absolutely no good historical evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus. None whatsoever.

I will determine what is good enough evidence for me, just like you decide what is good enough evidence for you.

(16-03-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  And the utter lack of corroborating evidence for the stories in the Gospels is quite damning.

Each Gospel corroborates the other. We have four biographies of Jesus Christ, all written during the lifetime of his followers...with other historical figures, you will be lucky to get ONE biography of the figure, much less any.
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16-03-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 12:22 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is absolutely no good historical evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus. None whatsoever.

I will determine what is good enough evidence for me, just like you decide what is good enough evidence for you.

(16-03-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  And the utter lack of corroborating evidence for the stories in the Gospels is quite damning.

Each Gospel corroborates the other. We have four biographies of Jesus Christ, all written during the lifetime of his followers...with other historical figures, you will be lucky to get ONE biography of the figure, much less any.
The gospels contradict eachother. Right out the gate they do. Please keep reading your bible, it's ironically the most compelling case for atheism. Most works of fiction are at least self-consistent. The bible doesnt even try to be consistent. It's a poorly thought fiction, based on prior myths, that portends to be the truth. Just pure garbage from start to finish.
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16-03-2015, 01:07 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 11:18 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  God cannot do other than "program" us. He knows the outcome of everything that will happen upon making decisions like how to make us (omniscient). He chooses the parameters of construction, could have chosen other ones, and knew the ones he picked led to evil. We're exactly as evil as he made us. He could have made us _more_ evil, too.

Well we can just nip this in the bud based on one yes or no question...are you freely choosing to reject Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?? Yes or no.

(16-03-2015 11:18 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  You mention objective morality somewhere. What do you mean by objective and how does that relate to morality?

Objective morality is idea that the truth value of what is right/wrong transcends the mind of mankind. For example, even if the whole world thought that the rape and torture of a child is right...it would still be wrong. Now, if you agree that even if the whole world thought it was right, that it would STILL be wrong...then you believe in objective morality...but the objective standard would have to transcend yourself, as there has to be a transcendant standard, otherwise, what are you basing that standard off of?

Now, if you DON'T believe in objective morality, then everything becomes subjective, a matter of opinion...but what would make your opinion any more right than someone that disagrees with you?

(16-03-2015 11:18 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  Wouldn't god based morality simply be god's opinion, and he has the power to enforce his rules, just like you see here on Earth with societies?

It wouldn't be his opinion because his morality is as necessary as his existence..and to take away his moral perfection would be like trying to take the wet from the water..his laws and commandments reflect who he is as a person. God, according to the Christian view, is the HIGHEST standard of what it means to be "good". It is "goodness" maxed out to its highest degree.

So if God is omniscient and omnibenovolent, then it isn't a matter of his opinion..it isn't "I think it is right, or I think it is wrong"...it is "It IS right...or it IS wrong".
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16-03-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 12:53 PM)photon9 Wrote:  The gospels contradict eachother. Right out the gate they do.

All Gospel's agree that Jesus is the Lord and Savior of the world...and THAT is the central basis for the Christian faith.

(16-03-2015 12:53 PM)photon9 Wrote:  Please keep reading your bible, it's ironically the most compelling case for atheism.

Really, well, Origin of Species (evolutionists bible) is the most compelling case for theism.

(16-03-2015 12:53 PM)photon9 Wrote:  Most works of fiction are at least self-consistent. The bible doesnt even try to be consistent. It's a poorly thought fiction, based on prior myths, that portends to be the truth. Just pure garbage from start to finish.

You are generalizing...I need specifics.
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16-03-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 01:11 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Really, well, Origin of Species (evolutionists bible) is the most compelling case for theism.

You're aware that we have surpassed the Origin of Species, right? Calling it the "evolutionists bible" implies that it's dogmatic to someone that accepts the Theory of Evolution but... it's not. Darwin got many things right, some things close, and others completely wrong (Genetics the best example of this).

It was a good starting point, but that's what it was, a starting point. We're waaaaay past it right now.

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16-03-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 02:31 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  You're aware that we have surpassed the Origin of Species, right? Calling it the "evolutionists bible" implies that it's dogmatic to someone that accepts the Theory of Evolution but... it's not. Darwin got many things right, some things close, and others completely wrong (Genetics the best example of this).

It was a good starting point, but that's what it was, a starting point. We're waaaaay past it right now.

So in other words, you've traversed a thousand miles, but you still have a thousand more to go...gotcha Thumbsup
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16-03-2015, 03:53 PM
RE: Question about flood
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but if you meant "you still have a lot to discover", I'd say... I don't know. What if yes? The best solution to that is keeping going forward.

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16-03-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: Question about flood
(16-03-2015 03:53 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  I am not sure I understand what you mean, but if you meant "you still have a lot to discover", I'd say... I don't know. What if yes? The best solution to that is keeping going forward.

I would add that having a lot more to discover (or "a thousand miles to go"), and admitting that, is far better than thinking that you already know it all -- which is the impression I get from most of these religious types. Religion isn't better than science because it has no questions or doubts.
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