Question about rape in the bible
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26-05-2015, 07:37 AM
Question about rape in the bible
I was listening to the 9 part series that Robert Price did on the book of Genesis and following along in the bible (used BibleGateway for that - quicker than paging thru an actual bible plus you have access to a slew of translations), and in part 8 of his series we reviewed the Rape of Dinah (Gen 34: 1-31)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=RSV

He tied this story to the "rape law", and the way he explained it was not that it was rape in the classic sense that we know it but more of a seduction of a woman by a man. It basically sounded like a 'shotgun' wedding. The question I have is whether it's probable that when rapist is allowed to marry a woman by law, that it's more of a case where 2 consenting lovers are caught as opposed to rape as we understand it?

In Deut 22: 28-29 here is the passage that discusses rape:
Quote:28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

Looking at this closer based on the commentary from Robert Price, this looks more like a case between consenting adults, and rape in this case is understood to be consenting sex between 2 people who were not betrothed and before marriage. At this point, it could also refer to forced sexual relations as we understand rape today, but I'm not sure this would be the assumption of a biblical reader back in the day.

I want to make sure I understand this so that if I'm in discussions with people about the bible (Baptists and Fundies since we have them roaming around periodically), I want to make sure I understand the rule on rape in the bible correctly. If anyone knows of a case in the bible where a woman was raped in the bible, the sex was forced on her unfairly and the leaders screwed the woman over royally I'd love to see it. I'll be studying the bible moving forward anyways, but any help would be appreciated!

If anyone is interested in learning more about the bible, I highly recommend the Robert Price youtube videos on the bible. While I've read the bible a number of times before (not cover to cover), I've never really READ the bible. It's true though, the more you read the bible and study it, the harder it is to believe as i was raised.
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26-05-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
Dunno. Perhaps we need to know the original non-English word(s) that later were translated as 'rape'.

The inference being, though (I suppose) that 'non-consensual' means without the father's (owner's) consent... cos the girl has no rights of her own.

Consider

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26-05-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
(26-05-2015 08:01 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Dunno. Perhaps we need to know the original non-English word(s) that later were translated as 'rape'.

The inference being, though (I suppose) that 'non-consensual' means without the father's (owner's) consent... cos the girl has no rights of her own.

Consider

That's what I'm wondering too. Just reading through the bible you can see that men call the shots, there's no such thing as dating as we know it and daughters were bargaining chips to merge tribes/peoples or households on a smaller scale.
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26-05-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
(26-05-2015 07:37 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I was listening to the 9 part series that Robert Price did on the book of Genesis and following along in the bible (used BibleGateway for that - quicker than paging thru an actual bible plus you have access to a slew of translations), and in part 8 of his series we reviewed the Rape of Dinah (Gen 34: 1-31)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=RSV

He tied this story to the "rape law", and the way he explained it was not that it was rape in the classic sense that we know it but more of a seduction of a woman by a man. It basically sounded like a 'shotgun' wedding. The question I have is whether it's probable that when rapist is allowed to marry a woman by law, that it's more of a case where 2 consenting lovers are caught as opposed to rape as we understand it?

In Deut 22: 28-29 here is the passage that discusses rape:
Quote:28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

Looking at this closer based on the commentary from Robert Price, this looks more like a case between consenting adults, and rape in this case is understood to be consenting sex between 2 people who were not betrothed and before marriage. At this point, it could also refer to forced sexual relations as we understand rape today, but I'm not sure this would be the assumption of a biblical reader back in the day.

I want to make sure I understand this so that if I'm in discussions with people about the bible (Baptists and Fundies since we have them roaming around periodically), I want to make sure I understand the rule on rape in the bible correctly. If anyone knows of a case in the bible where a woman was raped in the bible, the sex was forced on her unfairly and the leaders screwed the woman over royally I'd love to see it. I'll be studying the bible moving forward anyways, but any help would be appreciated!

If anyone is interested in learning more about the bible, I highly recommend the Robert Price youtube videos on the bible. While I've read the bible a number of times before (not cover to cover), I've never really READ the bible. It's true though, the more you read the bible and study it, the harder it is to believe as i was raised.

There are several different translations depending on which Bible you are using. The NIV translates Deut. 22:28-29 as rape:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Additionally, the passages prior to Deut. 22:28-29 seem to allude to rape as well: (Deut. 22:23-27)

"If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."

The Bible Background Commentary of the O.T. I have (by Walton/Matthews/Chavalas) says the above passage is talking about rape.
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26-05-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
There are multiple versions of Deuteronomy verse 28 here

While a couple have softer language, I find it hard to interpret "if a man finds a woman" or "seizes her" or "takes hold of her" as implying consensual sex.

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26-05-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
And the Lord looked upon it and said it was Good.


Fuck him.

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26-05-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
(26-05-2015 07:37 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I was listening to the 9 part series that Robert Price did on the book of Genesis and following along in the bible (used BibleGateway for that - quicker than paging thru an actual bible plus you have access to a slew of translations), and in part 8 of his series we reviewed the Rape of Dinah (Gen 34: 1-31)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=RSV

He tied this story to the "rape law", and the way he explained it was not that it was rape in the classic sense that we know it but more of a seduction of a woman by a man. It basically sounded like a 'shotgun' wedding. The question I have is whether it's probable that when rapist is allowed to marry a woman by law, that it's more of a case where 2 consenting lovers are caught as opposed to rape as we understand it?

In Deut 22: 28-29 here is the passage that discusses rape:
Quote:28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

Looking at this closer based on the commentary from Robert Price, this looks more like a case between consenting adults, and rape in this case is understood to be consenting sex between 2 people who were not betrothed and before marriage. At this point, it could also refer to forced sexual relations as we understand rape today, but I'm not sure this would be the assumption of a biblical reader back in the day.

I want to make sure I understand this so that if I'm in discussions with people about the bible (Baptists and Fundies since we have them roaming around periodically), I want to make sure I understand the rule on rape in the bible correctly. If anyone knows of a case in the bible where a woman was raped in the bible, the sex was forced on her unfairly and the leaders screwed the woman over royally I'd love to see it. I'll be studying the bible moving forward anyways, but any help would be appreciated!

If anyone is interested in learning more about the bible, I highly recommend the Robert Price youtube videos on the bible. While I've read the bible a number of times before (not cover to cover), I've never really READ the bible. It's true though, the more you read the bible and study it, the harder it is to believe as i was raised.

2 Samuel 12 talks about God getting mad at David for having Uriah killed (the husband of the lady he was screwing). As punishment, God has all of David's wives raped by David's son.
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26-05-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
(26-05-2015 09:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I find it hard to interpret "if a man finds a woman" or "seizes her" or "takes hold of her" as implying consensual sex.

^^^ This.

What do you mean Life is short. It's the longest thing you're going to do.
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26-05-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
Bottom line -- the "devout" tend to be a bunch of short dicked, repressed loonies that can't find willing sexual partners......

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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26-05-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Question about rape in the bible
Found this in 2Sam13: 10-14, which is from the story Amnon and Tamar.
Quote:10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food into the chamber, that I may eat from your hand.” And Tamar took the cakes she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. 11 But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her, and said to her, “Come, lie with me, my sister.” 12 She answered him, “No, my brother, do not force me; for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this wanton folly. 13 As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the wanton fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray you, speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you.” 14 But he would not listen to her; and being stronger than she, he forced her, and lay with her.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=RSV

Objectively, this is rape. But was it date rape in a manner of speaking? Tamar was definitely not repulsed by her half brother - unless she was saying anything she could just to get away from him. But when you read a little further, she seemed more distraught that he turned from loving her to being repulsed by her, and that the ultimate betrayal is not the rape itself so much as Amnon ultimately taking her virginity, but not wanting to marry her. She must have been bad in bed...

I'm probably splitting hairs here on a lot of this, because the overarching principle here is that the culture itself is debased by today's standards. But it seems like these verses tend to touch on both forced sexual contact and sexual relationships outside of marriage. I saw on one of the apologetics sites (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html) that advised that the rapist being required to marry the woman was actually a protection for the woman because of the fact that women had no rights in their society plus a woman who was not a virgin was not likely to be sought after for marriage and thus vulnerable.

Interestingly, I loved this sleight of hand trick that they did here:
Quote:Deuteronomy 22:25-27 mentioned the punishment the Mosaic Law commanded for a man who raped a woman. The man was to be killed by stoning while the woman was considered innocent. Though the Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel during the time of Moses, the principle is clear that rape was sinful in the eyes of God and led to the most extreme punishment possible—death for the rapist.

Wrong. Only if the woman was a betrothed virgin because then the man would be violating the commandment of adultury and coveting a neighbor's wife. Otherwise, the rapist (be it by force or by seduction) has to pay for taking the virginity of a woman.

Bottom line, it's all messed up.
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