Question about the Holy Spirit...
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02-06-2015, 02:50 PM
Question about the Holy Spirit...
To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....



I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)

Was the idea possibly posited later by the early church fathers since Jesus' predictions failed? (Matt: 24:34). Ecclesiastical redactor? Maybe editorial fatigue?

I'm curious of others' hypotheses!

**Crickets** -- God
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02-06-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(02-06-2015 02:50 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....



I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)

Was the idea possibly posited later by the early church fathers since Jesus' predictions failed? (Matt: 24:34). Ecclesiastical redactor? Maybe editorial fatigue?

I'm curious of others' hypotheses!

I like studying the Bible--even though I am no longer Christian. That said, I am nowhere near on the Mark Fulton level of things Smile My opinion of the readings is that the Holy Spirit idea was a way to keep the religion going--to keep it expanding. Kind of like Jesus saying, I am no longer here physically--but you still have the power (i.e. Holy Spirit) to keep going.

(Matt. 28:18-20) Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

(Acts 1:6-8) When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
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02-06-2015, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2015 03:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
They needed a "transitional (explanation) meme" to get the *story* over the hump from place 1 to place 2. So much of the content in Acts (ie Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit), was clearly written from the perspective of many many years after the time it was supposedly happening. For example at the end of Matthew, Jesus says "Make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING THEM, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And behold I am with you until the end of the age". Clearly many MANY many decades of theological development had intervened to get to the point where those words could be "placed in the mouth" (by the editors) of Jesus, AND still make sense without questions, to the assembly hearing them. Jesus never really preached the essential necessity of baptism. He never talked about the Holy Spirit much, ((although the *spirit as power* (BUT NEVER a *person of the trinity*) had been an ancient Hebrew idea)). They basically invented a cult from nothing. They had to make it look like it made sense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-08-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(02-06-2015 02:50 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....
I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)
So they could have personal revelations before Jesus returns.
Spirit was teaching them new things(things Jesus didn't tell them while He was with them). Spirit was giving them warnings. Spirit was comforting them.
Spirit was testifying about the truth to them.
All people who belong to true Church of Jesus Christ have this personal relationships with the Spirit/Holy Ghost. It calls "gift of the Holy Ghost"

By the power of the Holy Ghost I know what God wants me to do today and tomorrow and every day until I have to leave this world.
The Holy Ghost told Jesus's disciples what God wanted them to do every day.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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16-08-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(16-08-2015 03:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 02:50 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....
I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)
So they could have personal revelations before Jesus returns.
Spirit was teaching them new things(things Jesus didn't tell them while He was with them). Spirit was giving them warnings. Spirit was comforting them.
Spirit was testifying about the truth to them.
All people who belong to true Church of Jesus Christ have this personal relationships with the Spirit/Holy Ghost. It calls "gift of the Holy Ghost"

By the power of the Holy Ghost I know what God wants me to do today and tomorrow and every day until I have to leave this world.
The Holy Ghost told Jesus's disciples what God wanted them to do every day.

By the power of my Holy Underwear I command you to shut the hell up. You sound like a babbling street corner retard.
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16-08-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(16-08-2015 03:21 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  By the power of my Holy Underwear I command you to shut the hell up. You sound like a babbling street corner retard.
Kiss

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16-08-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(02-06-2015 02:50 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....



I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)

Was the idea possibly posited later by the early church fathers since Jesus' predictions failed? (Matt: 24:34). Ecclesiastical redactor? Maybe editorial fatigue?

I'm curious of others' hypotheses!

According to the gospels/Acts, Jesus had returned already and shown himself to many of his followers, giving them hope and a foretaste of their own afterlives. I don't know enough about early Christian theology to figure out when the end times that Jesus seemed to expect were conflated with the risen Christ's coming back separately yet again. Maybe several traditions (messiah saving the day politically for his coreligionists, resurrection after death, end times with a happy outcome for Christians, and Christ coming back yet again to say nah-nah-nah at those of us asking for evidence) merged at some point.

The holy spirit is a brilliant place saver for the Christian religion. Provides an explanation of peak experiences, dreams, and hallucinations besides insanity or wishful thinking (see our favorite Mormon); provides extra credibility in an Emperor's New Clothes way to con men busking for dough and other support; provides a promise of a personal experience of god; and provides Christians with something to hope for or feel inadequate about, if their rational mind can't bend enough to give them the holy spirit experience. Win-win-win for the woomeisters.
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16-08-2015, 06:16 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 06:40 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
(02-06-2015 03:23 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 02:50 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  To any of you, such as Mark Fulton and others who still love studying the bible even though they don't believe.....



I was wondering why the disciples would need some kind of Paraclete to lead them if Jesus was supposed to return in their lifetimes? (According to John)

Was the idea possibly posited later by the early church fathers since Jesus' predictions failed? (Matt: 24:34). Ecclesiastical redactor? Maybe editorial fatigue?

I'm curious of others' hypotheses!

I like studying the Bible--even though I am no longer Christian. That said, I am nowhere near on the Mark Fulton level of things Smile My opinion of the readings is that the Holy Spirit idea was a way to keep the religion going--to keep it expanding. Kind of like Jesus saying, I am no longer here physically--but you still have the power (i.e. Holy Spirit) to keep going.

(Matt. 28:18-20) Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

(Acts 1:6-8) When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Thanks for saying some nice things about me. Please don't put me up on too high a pedestal...because that means its a long way down when I fall. Big Grin

He's my two cents worth on this. The original followers of Jesus were Nazarenes ie Jews. They didn't believe in the holy spirit. They didn't believe Jesus had risen from the dead. They didn't believe Jesus was coming back.

It's important to realise that, as Bucky implies, Acts is basically a work of fiction.

I think Acts was written to try to establish a weak link between Jesus' followers and Paul's (pagan) Christian theology. There was no such link.
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16-08-2015, 06:57 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
The father ghost and holy spirit thing was invented later.

There's all kinds of BS.

Tonechaser you want to laugh, look up the Arian controversy.

Totally hilarious. Big Grin

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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16-08-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: Question about the Holy Spirit...
Call it a "spirit" or "ghost" and the credibility is of course high with a bunch of people who already believe someone came back from death.
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