Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
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08-03-2013, 02:48 PM
Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
I was watching a video [referencing Karen Armstrong's A History of God] about how the Old Testament we see today isn't the true story of the Hebrew people in that they were polytheistic at one time, and due to circumstances, changed [eventually] to a monotheism. Apparently there is evidence that is agreed upon by archeologist, anthropologist, and biblical studies professors . . . but I have to wonder how they found it and why modern Judaism is still quite monotheistic. Are these [relatively] recent discoveries that are widely unknown to most Jews, or just not considered? I'm not being all that terse, I'm afraid, . . . just wanting to know how the evidence was found and why, if it is actually true, there are still those who insist upon the religion having always being monotheistic?
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08-03-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
IMHO it's not die hard empirical evidence. 1. The language "evidence" pulls names similiar to Yahweh and says the Yahwist tradition appropriated from Canaanite religion (and the OT forbids specifically against Canaanite syncretism to boot!) 2. JEPD theory claims source texts and groups of authors not evidenced by empirical evidence, including a late, liberal dating of the OT text, disproved by archaeology (such as unearthing pre-6th century BCE architectural styles described in the OT, etc.). I've been in several classroom settings where Christians assaulted JEDP and the professors (shockingly) backed down in the face of the evidence, before waiting until the following semester to re-teach JEDP...
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08-03-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Abraham's parents may have been polytheistic IIRC. Abraham was monotheistic. He is considered the father of the Israelites (Jews).
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08-03-2013, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 04:56 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
It's called the Documentary Hypothesis. No one questions it, or the fact that the Hebrews were polytheistic. It's been around for almost a hundred years. in the 1950's William Foxwell Albright edited "The Interpreters Bible", in which 132 CONSERVATIVE Christian seminary professors and scholars all signed off on it. It's never been "refuted" by archaeology", as PleasyJeeby lied. He's just too undeucated to know. Read Dr. Richard Elliott Friedman's "Who Wrote The Bible", or "How The Bible Became a Book", by the head of the department at UCLA, Schniedewind. Two emeinent scholars will tell you all about it. It's a fact that the traditions were combined, and no real scholar questions it. There was no Bible until Ezra brought the Torah of Moses back from the Exile, which is why there is so much of Babylonian mythology all through Genesis.
http://www.jhsonline.org/reviews/review172.htm
The First commandment PROVES they were polytheistic. "No other gods before me". Archaeology has proven Yahweh had a wife, (Ashura) who was worshiped along with him.
http://news.discovery.com/history/religi...110318.htm
PleasyJeeby is just a liar. He thinks lying serves his cause.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...olden+Calf
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ment+texts
And it's not a "changed" OT, it's THE OT. It never existed BEFORE it was assembled by the redactor. It's all myth until Deborah. There was no Abraham. He was a myth. Archaeology has proven that, as well as the fact that his family (sons) were myth. Second Isaiah finally insisted on monotheism AFTER the Exile.
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_48.pdf




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08-03-2013, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 04:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(08-03-2013 03:26 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  IMHO it's not die hard empirical evidence. 1. The language "evidence" pulls names similiar to Yahweh and says the Yahwist tradition appropriated from Canaanite religion (and the OT forbids specifically against Canaanite syncretism to boot!) 2. JEPD theory claims source texts and groups of authors not evidenced by empirical evidence, including a late, liberal dating of the OT text, disproved by archaeology (such as unearthing pre-6th century BCE architectural styles described in the OT, etc.). I've been in several classroom settings where Christians assaulted JEDP and the professors (shockingly) backed down in the face of the evidence, before waiting until the following semester to re-teach JEDP...

But you just happen to fail to mention what the arguments were. Yahweh came from Babylon, not Canaan, so you're wrong about that. SexuallyPleasingJebusTroll really knows nothing about the Bible, as he has proven yet again. Only the FAR RIGHT of American Fundamentalism attempts, at this late date, to say the Documentary Hypothesis is wrong.

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08-03-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(08-03-2013 03:27 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Abraham's parents may have been polytheistic IIRC. Abraham was monotheistic. He is considered the father of the Israelites (Jews).
It wasn't Abraham who woke up one days and said "Bah, to hell with all those gods, the only god I need is Yahweh so let's forget about the rest."

Abraham is one of the fictional characters in the bible mythology. The real humans who wrote these works of fiction made him up. Those real humans were the fathers of their creations, not the fictional characters they created. What you said is tantamount to me saying that Bilbo Baggins is the father of fantasy fiction when what I really meant to say is that J. R. R. Tolkein is the father of fantasy fiction. The only real difference is that Tolkein lived much more recently and we know who he is while the writers of your fictional book lived so long ago that we don't know exactly who they are.

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08-03-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
The first time the Torah of Moses appears, is when Ezra brought it back from Exile, during which the ®edactor and (P)riests assembled it. Read the Book of Ezra. There is a festival, in which he introduces it. Before that, there WAS no Bible, or OT, or any parts of it.

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08-03-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Well for how people take that information.. It's always seemingly an unknown number, but various times I've heard it referenced how a large percentage, nearly 50% perhaps, of those in Israel are atheists/agnostics. That isn't just by judging those who are not orthodox but an actual belief to the religion. Plenty of people there and across the world now will still attach themselves to the heritage as culturally Jewish. Part of this information that has been known for awhile is an aspect to why.

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08-03-2013, 05:51 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(08-03-2013 05:03 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 03:27 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Abraham's parents may have been polytheistic IIRC. Abraham was monotheistic. He is considered the father of the Israelites (Jews).
It wasn't Abraham who woke up one days and said "Bah, to hell with all those gods, the only god I need is Yahweh so let's forget about the rest."

Abraham is one of the fictional characters in the bible mythology. The real humans who wrote these works of fiction made him up. Those real humans were the fathers of their creations, not the fictional characters they created. What you said is tantamount to me saying that Bilbo Baggins is the father of fantasy fiction when what I really meant to say is that J. R. R. Tolkein is the father of fantasy fiction. The only real difference is that Tolkein lived much more recently and we know who he is while the writers of your fictional book lived so long ago that we don't know exactly who they are.
Yes it was, pretty much.

If the Bible was fabricated, it would not have lasted the test of time. That is pure rubbish and speculation. We know who the apostles were and we know they knew Jesus Christ and saw him after his resurrection. They witnessed his miracles firsthand. He believed and quoted the OT. He spoke of Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon.
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08-03-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(08-03-2013 05:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The first time the Torah of Moses appears, is when Ezra brought it back from Exile, during which the ®edactor and (P)riests assembled it. Read the Book of Ezra. There is a festival, in which he introduces it. Before that, there WAS no Bible, or OT, or any parts of it.
Moses wrote his books during the 40 years in the desert. This is where the OT started.
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