Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
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12-03-2013, 06:18 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(11-03-2013 11:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It was an empty book written by translators of people who believed "THIS is how it really should be because what I'm supposed to be translating here doesn't really make sense, so I'll change it up a bit" . . . a process that was probably mirrored untold number of times.
An oft-heard assertion. Do you have proof of this? Can you please provide us with your alternate versions in Hebrew and Greek? Thanks. Also (and I'm not accusing you of being them, although writing a book against the scriptures is not a smart idea) Hitler, Darwin and Marx were more than conversant with the scriptures but not born again believers. It's not how much Word you read but whether you had a born again relationship with Jesus, right?
Ah ha!

So "it" is all about being in a "born again relationship with Jesus?" Thinking isn't important, nor is truth, history, logic, ethics or morality.

Do you know what your "relationship with Jesus" really is? It's a suppression of your ego, your individuality, your opinions, your choice in relationships, and your ability to think rationally. It turns you into a sheep, a clone, and makes you malleable. Your church loves you once you're "born again," because it's so easy to empty your pockets.

Here's you, a 21st century educated man with access to the internet, imagining you have a relationship with a 2000 year old Jewish (not Christian) peasant. Aren't you embarrassed by that? He's not able to tell you to stop being so stupid because he's dead. That peasant's life story was invented by the Roman government of the time to control people like you. You've swallowed the bullshit; hook, line and sinker, just like a small-minded ignorant pleb.

And here you are trying to convince others to join the flock. For some reason you imagine we haven't heard your drivel thousands of times before.

I can understand people in centuries past being like you. They didn't know any better. Yet you have no excuse. You've had an education, the media and the internet.

Your bleating here is pathetic, not just because you're a christian, but because you're so closed minded. You haven't followed up on anything that's been said.

Shove your "born again relationship" with your fictional Christ up your arse.
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12-03-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(12-03-2013 06:18 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-03-2013 11:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  An oft-heard assertion. Do you have proof of this? Can you please provide us with your alternate versions in Hebrew and Greek? Thanks. Also (and I'm not accusing you of being them, although writing a book against the scriptures is not a smart idea) Hitler, Darwin and Marx were more than conversant with the scriptures but not born again believers. It's not how much Word you read but whether you had a born again relationship with Jesus, right?
Ah ha!

So "it" is all about being in a "born again relationship with Jesus?" Thinking isn't important, nor is truth, history, logic, ethics or morality.

Shove your "born again relationship" with your fictional Christ up your arse.
I don't think you should hold back, tell him how you really feel Wink

(Took the words right out of my mouth)

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."- Mark Twain in Eruption
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12-03-2013, 07:00 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Thanks for the post [#70], EvolutionKills. I think I was watching a video when I saw that type of information. I knew someone on here had info on the documentation.

One of the most ridiculous parts of christian apologetics is to pretend that the person they're talking to has never heard the message before. . . . . . . . kind of like they expect the real world to be their own personal Chick Tract. "You mean, . . . Jesus did that for me? I had no idea!!!! I want to be saved! Tell me how!!" Sorry, . . . it doesn't work that way. Not when you have SO much information against it all that there would be absolutely NO way I [or most on here] would ever start "believing it".

Mark. . . well said! :-)
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12-03-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Quote:Thanks for the post [#70], EvolutionKills. I think I was watching a video when I saw that type of information. I knew someone on here had info on the documentation.

One of the most ridiculous parts of christian apologetics is to pretend that the person they're talking to has never heard the message before. . . . . . . . kind of like they expect the real world to be their own personal Chick Tract. "You mean, . . . Jesus did that for me? I had no idea!!!! I want to be saved! Tell me how!!" Sorry, . . . it doesn't work that way. Not when you have SO much information against it all that there would be absolutely NO way I [or most on here] would ever start "believing it".

Mark. . . well said! :-)
I do apologize. It's not my intent to offend. Merely to explore some very interesting lines of thought with you. I'm able to learn and discuss here about rules of logic and debate as well as trim the fat off what I believe... the local Atheists where I am fall to pieces against my apologetics. Here you all have advanced learning and far more backbone than they do... One bottom line, though, is this--in places including India, rather than a discussion, Christians tend to ask in local villages for prayer needs. Normally nearly the whole village assembles, prayers are made--and answered--and converts begin to enjoy a changed life--a changed life Jesus offers to us in the First World also. Missionaries in my church movement just visited with us to report thousands of conversions and hundreds of prayers answered. We can, as the Bible says, use our great knowledge and sophistication around here--as a barrier against humility before God. Yes, it would bug me no end to listen to a dead man from thousands of years ago--as you wrote--unless I knew that Israel was restored a Jewish nation with their scriptures intact after 2,400 years, and unless I saw on an almost daily basis wonderful prayers of all kinds accepted and answered. Give me my 20-plus years as a fundamentalist, having had thousands of prayers answered. I am thousands of data points beyond basic anecdotal or coincidental evidence. Thank you.
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12-03-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
I am unable to address your "answered prayers" claims. When I was "a christian", I heard many of them myself.

What I'm more interested in is the source data religions utilize to "teach people from". If what is written in modern bibles isn't the true story, then anything preached from them is suspect. Could a "god" still use the "faith of the people" [if a god exists]? I suppose, . . . and maybe even "answer prayers". But even IF this were literally happening, . . . there is a point of contention to take against "pampering [for lack of a better word] a few believers while allowing mass starvation in some countries, . . . or even a pervert rapist to deny the will of his victim". It may appear to be "praise worthy" when "a christian's pain is taken away", but considering, . . . . . it isn't for me.

My "20 years of fundamentalistic christianity" is far different than yours, so it would seem. I wasn't ever able to reconcile the actions of my fellow christians into a reality for me. It never felt right. I did enjoy some of the fellowship, though. I had some pretty good times with kids in my youth group. I miss that at times. My social life is basically . . . going to either my sister's or brother's. It is what it is.
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12-03-2013, 10:12 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(12-03-2013 08:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Give me my 20-plus years as a fundamentalist, having had thousands of prayers answered. I am thousands of data points beyond basic anecdotal or coincidental evidence. Thank you.

If somebody prays to find their car keys, and then a short while later they find their car keys, was that prayer answered? Is that a data point for you?

If somebody prays for a solution to their financial problems and a few weeks later their boss gives them their annual 2% raise, was that prayer answered? Is that a data point for you?

If somebody goes away for a few months to a faraway land, spends time in a muddy third-world village, then comes back and says he saw a hundred prayers answered, do you take his word for it? Are those data points for you?

Do you have any actual data points where a specific prayer was asked and the answer was clear and specific and, most importantly, something that would never ever happen from natural causes or normal every day life (like finding keys or getting an annual raise)? Are any of them documented that you can share, actual proof that someone prayed for an impossible thing and then it happened?

I doubt it.

Without that, your "data points" are all just confirmation bias. "Yep, last night when I went to bed I prayed the Lord my soul to keep, and I woke up, so he kept me safe, just like I prayed for. Chalk up one data point."

That just isn't going to cut it.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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14-03-2013, 12:31 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(12-03-2013 10:12 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(12-03-2013 08:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Give me my 20-plus years as a fundamentalist, having had thousands of prayers answered. I am thousands of data points beyond basic anecdotal or coincidental evidence. Thank you.

If somebody prays to find their car keys, and then a short while later they find their car keys, was that prayer answered? Is that a data point for you?

If somebody prays for a solution to their financial problems and a few weeks later their boss gives them their annual 2% raise, was that prayer answered? Is that a data point for you?

If somebody goes away for a few months to a faraway land, spends time in a muddy third-world village, then comes back and says he saw a hundred prayers answered, do you take his word for it? Are those data points for you?

Do you have any actual data points where a specific prayer was asked and the answer was clear and specific and, most importantly, something that would never ever happen from natural causes or normal every day life (like finding keys or getting an annual raise)? Are any of them documented that you can share, actual proof that someone prayed for an impossible thing and then it happened?

I doubt it.

Without that, your "data points" are all just confirmation bias. "Yep, last night when I went to bed I prayed the Lord my soul to keep, and I woke up, so he kept me safe, just like I prayed for. Chalk up one data point."

That just isn't going to cut it.

Interesting. How many of my "data points" were positives and how many were negatives? I said I had thousands of iterations. I've been overseas on missions myself and seen many wonderful things.
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14-03-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Doesn't matter.

You could have thousands of positives, or only a handful of positives weighed against thousands of negatives. Regardless, you're still trying to please Jesus, so I guess you have enough positives to sustain your belief.

Even that is irrelevant unless your positive data points are something that just could never happen without god. Like an amputee growing back his lost limb, or maybe praying to fly and suddenly you sprout functional wings and go zipping around the sky like a bird, or whatever - something that could never possibly be explained without normal, natural explanations.

Until you have data points like that, all you're doing is applying your own wishful thinking, seasoned with a hefty sprinkling of confirmation bias, to natural ordinary events for no reason other than your desire to please your imaginary iron-age hippie in the sky.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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14-03-2013, 09:37 PM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
(12-03-2013 08:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Thanks for the post [#70], EvolutionKills. I think I was watching a video when I saw that type of information. I knew someone on here had info on the documentation.

One of the most ridiculous parts of christian apologetics is to pretend that the person they're talking to has never heard the message before. . . . . . . . kind of like they expect the real world to be their own personal Chick Tract. "You mean, . . . Jesus did that for me? I had no idea!!!! I want to be saved! Tell me how!!" Sorry, . . . it doesn't work that way. Not when you have SO much information against it all that there would be absolutely NO way I [or most on here] would ever start "believing it".

Mark. . . well said! :-)
I do apologize. It's not my intent to offend. Merely to explore some very interesting lines of thought with you. I'm able to learn and discuss here about rules of logic and debate as well as trim the fat off what I believe... the local Atheists where I am fall to pieces against my apologetics. Here you all have advanced learning and far more backbone than they do... One bottom line, though, is this--in places including India, rather than a discussion, Christians tend to ask in local villages for prayer needs. Normally nearly the whole village assembles, prayers are made--and answered--and converts begin to enjoy a changed life--a changed life Jesus offers to us in the First World also. Missionaries in my church movement just visited with us to report thousands of conversions and hundreds of prayers answered. We can, as the Bible says, use our great knowledge and sophistication around here--as a barrier against humility before God. Yes, it would bug me no end to listen to a dead man from thousands of years ago--as you wrote--unless I knew that Israel was restored a Jewish nation with their scriptures intact after 2,400 years, and unless I saw on an almost daily basis wonderful prayers of all kinds accepted and answered. Give me my 20-plus years as a fundamentalist, having had thousands of prayers answered. I am thousands of data points beyond basic anecdotal or coincidental evidence. Thank you.


Well done realising that many people are thoroughly sick of having Jeebus shoved down their throats.

I hear it that you're convinced re miracles and prayers being answered etc. Please digest what DR and AS have said. I'm sure you can appreciate that "stories" about such things are a dime a dozen.

You sound like you care about people, and that you genuinely think that telling them about Jesus is in their interests. I even accept that some people may get some benefit out of the process of being "born again."

I am a doctor of medicine and have 20 years experience in helping people live happy, healthy, meaningful lives. My experience is the opposite to yours. I often have to "pick up the pieces" after people have had a lifetime of Christian indoctrination. I'm talking about depression, anxiety, guilt, irrational thinking, paranoia and psycho-sexual issues. I don't "preach" atheism, (that's too confronting for most of them), yet I often have to spend many sessions with them to "undo" some of the damage. It's amazing how often the roots of their problems go back to unhealthy Christian teachings that were promoted during their childhoods.

I've written a blog about this, and over a thousand (random) people have "liked" it. Please read it at http://www.markfulton.org/the-psychologi...ristianity . I would be very interested in your feedback.
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15-03-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: Question about the "J", "E", "P", "R", "D", and the "changed Old Testament".
Quote:Well done realising that many people are thoroughly sick of having Jeebus shoved down their throats.

I hear it that you're convinced re miracles and prayers being answered etc. Please digest what DR and AS have said. I'm sure you can appreciate that "stories" about such things are a dime a dozen.

You sound like you care about people, and that you genuinely think that telling them about Jesus is in their interests. I even accept that some people may get some benefit out of the process of being "born again."

I am a doctor of medicine and have 20 years experience in helping people live happy, healthy, meaningful lives. My experience is the opposite to yours. I often have to "pick up the pieces" after people have had a lifetime of Christian indoctrination. I'm talking about depression, anxiety, guilt, irrational thinking, paranoia and psycho-sexual issues. I don't "preach" atheism, (that's too confronting for most of them), yet I often have to spend many sessions with them to "undo" some of the damage. It's amazing how often the roots of their problems go back to unhealthy Christian teachings that were promoted during their childhoods.

I've written a blog about this, and over a thousand (random) people have "liked" it. Please read it at http://www.markfulton.org/the-psychologi...ristianity . I would be very interested in your feedback.
Oh, I read that blog yesterday in full. There are a lot of holes in it but more importantly, let's start with an agreement. I agree with you that there are a lot of Christians with real issues. Jesus saves all kinds of people. Smart people and dumb. Neurotic, troubled and confident, etc. And? My point still stands that it IS about whether you have a relationship with Jesus. I've worked in entertainment a bunch also. I have a friend who is setting a date to visit my house to watch a movie with me because he wants my commentary--I've been to X location, Y actor had lunch with me last year, Z director said this, etc. Kind of a silly request and I might honor it or might just invite him to a lecture I'm giving on that genre of film this summer. My point? Knowing Jesus Christ, the very mind and heart of God, enhances any understanding of the Word of God, the Holy Bible. Just like a regular author's chat or "Inside the Actor's Studio" adds a little or a lot more to understanding. That point is still valid.
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