Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
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16-11-2016, 11:38 PM
Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
I am currently an agnostic, and I do believe in evolution, the big bang, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, Hawking, just to name a few atheists. I think that for the most part, science does its job when explaining the universe, and the world in general. However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head. Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences. For example, many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review. I am wondering if anyone on this site ever read the Dr. Jeffrey book proof of afterlife? In his book, he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences. About 95% of participants thought that these experiences felt more real than real life, and hallucinations cannot feel that real. Also, many claim to see A god, but without a particular title. If 1600 experiences are very similar, would you say that it could mean that these are in fact snapshots of an afterlife? I just don't know how they can be so consistent, and how they can be so life changing if they are not real.
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)
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17-11-2016, 12:01 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
(16-11-2016 11:38 PM)Violeta-1998 Wrote:  ...
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)

Welcome to TTA.

I have had both NDEs and OBEs ... dang! that was a good party!

Can you give a little more info regarding "he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences"?

Cheers.

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17-11-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
...

Near death experiences... prove what exactly? Jesus is waiting for us after death? There is Something More ™ ?

If God's out there he's got a damn strange way of communicating. What would be so wrong with a Skype call? He could manage that right? But nooooooo, let's convince people of God's Truth by talking to people who're about to die. A bunch of wild-eyed types shouting about bright lights is definitely the best way.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-11-2016, 01:16 AM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2016 01:22 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
(16-11-2016 11:38 PM)Violeta-1998 Wrote:  I am currently an agnostic, and I do believe in evolution, the big bang, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, Hawking, just to name a few atheists. I think that for the most part, science does its job when explaining the universe, and the world in general. However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head. Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences. For example, many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review. I am wondering if anyone on this site ever read the Dr. Jeffrey book proof of afterlife? In his book, he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences. About 95% of participants thought that these experiences felt more real than real life, and hallucinations cannot feel that real. Also, many claim to see A god, but without a particular title. If 1600 experiences are very similar, would you say that it could mean that these are in fact snapshots of an afterlife? I just don't know how they can be so consistent, and how they can be so life changing if they are not real.
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)

near deaths experiences in general are life changing experiences, as the brain shuts down it makes perfect sense that we'd hallucinate things at such a traumatic point in time. Because our brains hallucinate all the time, without the help of impending death. He doesn't sound like he's debunked much.

I've hallucinated before, and they feel pretty damn real.
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17-11-2016, 01:21 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
(16-11-2016 11:38 PM)Violeta-1998 Wrote:  many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review

I agree with the others; I'm curious to know how Dr. Long concluded that it wasn't brain chemicals. We know the brain releases a hallucinogen (DMT, or N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) when it approaches death through oxygen starvation. Pilots pulling high-G maneuvers also experience this, so strangely enough the US Air Force has some of the best research on the subject.

There are other conditions in which the effects you describe, above, are known to manifest in totally conscious people, if their brains are tricked into a form of temporal lobe epilepsy (not the same as regular Grand Mal epilepsy) by using magnetic fields to alter the blood flow in their brains.

I highly recommend you look into the Koren Helmet, aka "The God Helmet", which can simulate NDE symptoms in the subjects.




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-11-2016, 05:04 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
(16-11-2016 11:38 PM)Violeta-1998 Wrote:  Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences.

So why would NDEs be similar if you are Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. ?

Obviously it has nothing to do with an external reality in the supernatural realm, it's focused on the individual. Muslims see Allah or loved ones, Christians see Jesus or loved ones, Buddhists see the Buddha or loved ones, etc.

Also, I note there are probably far more people that experience nothing when they are near death. It's people claiming they saw these things that get all of the attention.

A former friend of mine, who was a fundamentalist Christian, had a heart attack and he collapsed on the pavement in front of his kid's school and then was rushed to the hospital.

I asked if had seen anything after he collapsed, he said no, he experienced absolutely nothing until he woke up in the hospital.

If the vast majority of people that experience what it's like to die, and they experience nothing, then why should the minority of experiences be chalked up to anything except an outlier experience, that the majority that have no conscious experience are what the underlying reality is?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-11-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
How can they be so consistent?

Because we're all human, and have the same trippy chemicals in the brain that can become activated under trauma.

How can they be so life-changing?

Because we're hardwired not to die, so that when we think we're about done and have an experience to show otherwise; we're likely to cling to that.

Quote:You say this research has affected you a lot on a personal level. How?

I'm a physician who fights cancer. In spite of our best efforts, not everybody is going to be cured. My absolute understanding that there is an afterlife for all of us — and a wonderful afterlife — helps me face cancer, this terribly frightening and threatening disease, with more courage than I've ever faced it with before. I can be a better physician for my patients.


So, there's that...

The big problem I have with NDEs is the "fire alarm thingy." You ever have that dream, where there's this whole, big, elaborate scenario that abruptly ends with your alarm clock mournfully wailing in the corner? What obviously happens is you hear the alarm and yer brain (your brain is not your friend) instantly spins up this whole visual novel and sticks into your memory instantaneously upon awakening.

'Cause that's what the brain does - make shit up. Tongue

Quote:You say we can draw on near-death experiences to reach conclusions about life after actual death. But is that comparing apples and oranges?

Scientifically speaking, interviewing people that have permanently died is challenging.


Well, exactly. They're not interviewing dead people; and we can hope they're not pestering people on the table with this nonsense.

"Excuse me, Mr. Doe, now that I have your attention, and my hands in your chest cavity... can you tell me about your experience?"
"Uh... ouw."


The guy takes about skeptics with their own pet theories being unable to alter their perspectives in the face of the evidence... but what evidence gets past the fire alarm thingy?

Oh- it has a profound impact on the person experiencing it Gasp

That makes it real...

I've had experiences - Laugh out load - the one that comes to mind is where "I remember standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet." So, yeah; I'm a prophet on an atheist forum with a rep of 126 - does that mean you should knock it off and worship Gwyneth Paltrow?

Well, it works for me. Big Grin

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17-11-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
Well, this atheist had a near death event in February1998 - two heart attacks in one night, either of which should have been fatal. And I got a neighbour to take me to the hospital and walked in.

No NDE for me. Not sure if being pumped full of morphine would have enhanced or reduced the chance of one. But, in those moments when I was lucid I was only aware of the equipment and procedures being used. My enquiring brain was fully in charge and I was able to respond easily to questions. And ask some...

On two other occasions my cardiac implant has saved my life, though I did black out on one of those.

Blackness of fuzziness in the peripheral vision due to a low of blood pressure (I tend towards hypotension) can cause "tunnel vision" and cause other visual effects - similar to the after image from looking up through a tree canopy at a bright sky then down to a darker area. Though the "after image" effect, for me, is grey rather than green or red and not visible with the eyes closed.

There are also auditory effects; ringing, a tone, a "gong" sound etc, like very loud tinnitus, associated with reduced blood supply to the head.

It would not surprise me if those of a religious disposition and just aware enough to be suffering anxiety regarding their situation, an emotional-pathological state not conducive of rational thought (as I know too well), might interpret these symptoms as "spiritual" in some manner.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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17-11-2016, 06:06 AM
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
Quote:I am currently an agnostic

*groan*

Quote:However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head.

*groan*

I'm judging the shit out of you right now.

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17-11-2016, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2016 06:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
If "near death" experiences were real, they would not ALWAYS reflect ONLY the cultures, images, music, concepts, ideas, and people that the people having them ALREADY knew about from the experiences they already had. There would be AT LEAST one unique thing about them. There isn't.

NDE are simply brains de-saturating of oxygen.
Rats have them.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots...xperiences
Just because something feels real, means nothing. We know patients have very intense "fantom pain", all sorts of dream states, etc etc etc.
If "feeling real" = real, then every psychopath would be a genius.

If they were real, there would be *something* experienced in them that was totally unique or something the person experiencing them knew nothing about , had never heard of, or ONE thing humans didn't already know about. There never is.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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