Question about verse in Matthew
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-06-2013, 02:31 PM
Question about verse in Matthew
In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like greenjelly's post
20-06-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
(20-06-2013 02:31 PM)greenjelly Wrote:  In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?

My guess is either it is either an interpolation by later authors or a mistranslation.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
20-06-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
(20-06-2013 02:31 PM)greenjelly Wrote:  In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?

The "cross" was a sign of suffering long before Jesus. The Romans made sure of this with their public crucifixions. Criminals were also made to carry their cross to their own crucifixion site. "Picking up your cross" was probably a popular colloquialism that meant your chosen path was going to bring suffering or something like that.

I think 10:38 is basically saying, "If you follow me, you're going to suffer. So, if you don't accept this suffering, then you aren't worthy of following me."

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
(20-06-2013 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 02:31 PM)greenjelly Wrote:  In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?

The "cross" was a sign of suffering long before Jesus. The Romans made sure of this with their public crucifixions. Criminals were also made to carry their cross to their own crucifixion site. "Picking up your cross" was probably a popular colloquialism that meant your chosen path was going to bring suffering or something like that.

I think 10:38 is basically saying, "If you follow me, you're going to suffer. So, if you don't accept this suffering, then you aren't worthy of following me."
you may indeed be correct but there's a lot of "if" in that there statement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
(20-06-2013 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 02:31 PM)greenjelly Wrote:  In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?

The "cross" was a sign of suffering long before Jesus. The Romans made sure of this with their public crucifixions. Criminals were also made to carry their cross to their own crucifixion site. "Picking up your cross" was probably a popular colloquialism that meant your chosen path was going to bring suffering or something like that.

I think 10:38 is basically saying, "If you follow me, you're going to suffer. So, if you don't accept this suffering, then you aren't worthy of following me."

Except of course that Crucifixion was not a common method for criminals. It was in fact a reserved punishment for rebels and people who broke Pax Romana. It was similar to the later use of Drawing and Quartering in Europe. Crucifixion was meant to humiliate and degrade, you were nailed to a cross naked and left to die slowly in full public view. For someone like Yeshua, an active opponent of roman rule I doubt such a saying was ever used.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Revenant77x's post
20-06-2013, 05:44 PM
 
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
(20-06-2013 02:31 PM)greenjelly Wrote:  In Matthew 10:38, Jesus says "Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Was the 'cross' the sign of Jesus even before he was crucified? Or was this verse written long after the crucifixion, and ascribed to Jesus even though he couldn't have said it?

Excellent question. The word translated as cross at Matthew 10:38 is the Greek stauron (Latin crux). In classical Greek Stauros meant a stake, pale or pile like they used for foundations. The Latin crux, the Greek stauros and it's variations as well as the Greek xylon meant a simple stake for impaling. This was used in crucifixions in Jesus time. Only later, after the Emperor Constantine, a sun worshiper who's symbol was a cross, did Christianity begin to use it as a symbol.
Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2013, 06:45 PM
RE: Question about verse in Matthew



...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2013, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2013 07:26 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question about verse in Matthew
The Gospel of Matthew is a carefully crafted chiasmic myth,
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasmus )

as Dr. Richard Carrier explains here :
(skip ahead to about 30:00)





which was a common form of literature produced in the ancient Near East.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicat...hapid=1287

The entire 10th Chapter is a literary device, which was commonly employed in ancient literature. It clearly reflects a post-resurrection view of both Jebus, and the mission of the apostles. He, of course, could not have known, (being an apocalyptic preacher) either that the "end of the age" would NOT come, in their lifetimes, (as he fully expected), or that he was going to be executed, (if indeed there even was such a singular "person" named Yushua ben Josef), The words are clearly "placed in his mouth" as a "post-dictum" reflecting events that were to occur in sequence later. Thus the "omniscient" author, (Matthew), already knows the outcome, obviously. Jebus never said those words. It's clearly a part of the chiasmic myth structure. The whole notion of "worthy of me" reflects a much later view, or at least something that someone would say AFTER the "worthy" actions have been accomplished. *Before* they have been done, (and the 10th Chapter if before the execution), the words in that context would have no meaning. They only make sense in a post event sense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: