Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
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11-10-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 05:32 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  American slavery was around for what?...250 years?...Not enough time. Need like 10,000 years to make significant changes(eg wolf to poodle).

Most of the 300+ pedigree breeds that we have today have only come into existence over the last 150 years. –A very short amount of time to see such vast differences. Although, the canine does have a distinct advantage over humans in breeding cycles. It's possible that we may never know of humans are similarly genetically malleable.

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11-10-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:03 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 05:32 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  American slavery was around for what?...250 years?...Not enough time. Need like 10,000 years to make significant changes(eg wolf to poodle).

Most of the 300+ pedigree breeds that we have today have only come into existence over the last 150 years. –A very short amount of time to see such vast differences. Although, the canine does have a distinct advantage over humans in breeding cycles. It's possible that we may never know of humans are similarly genetically malleable.

There's no reason to think that we're not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That has to do with altitude. Kenya Marathon runners primarily come from the high altitude portions of that country. Living for long periods at high altitude increases blood flow (to compensate).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...nners.html

As to slavery resulting in Athletics it is possible. I can't imagine that White Plantation owners with 2000+ years of animal husbandry would not use that skill on what was a very expensive commodity (from their perspective) Slaves were not cheap to own, this is why the men of Washington and Jefferson's generation thought the problem would solve itself. Without the cotton gin slavery was rather unprofitable. We do know that sickle cell anemia is a product of african-american slavery so it is not too much to wonder if some of the athletic accomplishments may be due to that as well.

Cool....I didn't know that about Kenyan runners....thanks for the link.

But getting the thread closer to topic. Do you think human manipulation of their offsprings genes will become common place? I suspect not because invitrol fertilization will never become as routine as conceiving the natural way.
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11-10-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 06:03 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Most of the 300+ pedigree breeds that we have today have only come into existence over the last 150 years. –A very short amount of time to see such vast differences. Although, the canine does have a distinct advantage over humans in breeding cycles. It's possible that we may never know of humans are similarly genetically malleable.

There's no reason to think that we're not.

I agree with Chas for once.
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11-10-2013, 06:18 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 06:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That has to do with altitude. Kenya Marathon runners primarily come from the high altitude portions of that country. Living for long periods at high altitude increases blood flow (to compensate).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...nners.html

As to slavery resulting in Athletics it is possible. I can't imagine that White Plantation owners with 2000+ years of animal husbandry would not use that skill on what was a very expensive commodity (from their perspective) Slaves were not cheap to own, this is why the men of Washington and Jefferson's generation thought the problem would solve itself. Without the cotton gin slavery was rather unprofitable. We do know that sickle cell anemia is a product of african-american slavery so it is not too much to wonder if some of the athletic accomplishments may be due to that as well.

Cool....I didn't know that about Kenyan runners....thanks for the link.

But getting the thread closer to topic. Do you think human manipulation of their offsprings genes will become common place? I suspect not because invitrol fertilization will never become as routine as conceiving the natural way.

I think it will depend on how easy the process is. If during a routine check-up a doctor could give an expectant mother a shot (or some other non-invasive procedure) and fix potentially fatal genetic disorders then I could see it taking hold. If however it is a very involved and complicated procedure with a lot of risk (and tbh I think this is far more likely at least in the beginning) then I doubt it will come about very quickly, if at all.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-10-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 06:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Cool....I didn't know that about Kenyan runners....thanks for the link.

But getting the thread closer to topic. Do you think human manipulation of their offsprings genes will become common place? I suspect not because invitrol fertilization will never become as routine as conceiving the natural way.

I think it will depend on how easy the process is. If during a routine check-up a doctor could give an expectant mother a shot (or some other non-invasive procedure) and fix potentially fatal genetic disorders then I could see it taking hold. If however it is a very involved and complicated procedure with a lot of risk (and tbh I think this is far more likely at least in the beginning) then I doubt it will come about very quickly, if at all.

I imagine the manipulation is going to be done in a petri dish and then the zygote re-inserted back into the woman. I imagine that's always going to be more difficult than the old fashion way.

Perhaps it will become a common practice if the humanity starts gestating its children outside a mothers womb. If that technology ever came to be, I can see many women adopting it instead of going thru 9 months of pregnancy.
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11-10-2013, 06:36 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 06:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think it will depend on how easy the process is. If during a routine check-up a doctor could give an expectant mother a shot (or some other non-invasive procedure) and fix potentially fatal genetic disorders then I could see it taking hold. If however it is a very involved and complicated procedure with a lot of risk (and tbh I think this is far more likely at least in the beginning) then I doubt it will come about very quickly, if at all.

I imagine the manipulation is going to be done in a petri dish and then the zygote re-inserted back into the woman. I imagine that's always going to be more difficult than the old fashion way.

Perhaps it will become a common practice if the humanity starts gestating its children outside a mothers womb. If that technology ever came to be, I can see many women adopting it instead of going thru 9 months of pregnancy.

I don't know about that. I'm not a woman, but I've been involved with the process twice now. I can't speak for all women, just my wife, but there is a profound intimacy inherent in carrying a baby inside of you. For all of the inconveniences and pain that goes with pregnancy, I don't think she'd give it up if she had the choice.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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11-10-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 05:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Selective pressures obviously play a role in what is observed. However I can't say what is observed is the result of artificial selective pressure. Kenyans, who make up maybe half a precent of world population, utterly dominate long distance running and I doubt that has anything to do with slavery in America.

That has to do with altitude. Kenya Marathon runners primarily come from the high altitude portions of that country. Living for long periods at high altitude increases blood flow (to compensate).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...nners.html

As to slavery resulting in Athletics it is possible. I can't imagine that White Plantation owners with 2000+ years of animal husbandry would not use that skill on what was a very expensive commodity (from their perspective) Slaves were not cheap to own, this is why the men of Washington and Jefferson's generation thought the problem would solve itself. Without the cotton gin slavery was rather unprofitable. We do know that sickle cell anemia is a product of african-american slavery so it is not too much to wonder if some of the athletic accomplishments may be due to that as well.

Not exactly "blood flow". Blood composition.
Hemoglobin values are generally quoted as 13.5-17.5 g/dL for males and 12.0-16.0 g/dL for females. Children have considerably different hemoglobin values than do adults. The local range of reference must also be considered. Increase in altitude causes a physiologic increase in hemoglobin, such that the normal hemoglobin level in Denver will be higher than in Death Valley. In response to decreased O-2, the kidneys release erythropoietin, which causes more hemoglobin molecules to form, and RBCs in the bone marrow. Eventually any mutation which promoted that homeostatic state, would be selected for.

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11-10-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 06:36 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I don't know about that. I'm not a woman, but I've been involved with the process twice now. I can't speak for all women, just my wife, but there is a profound intimacy inherent in carrying a baby inside of you. For all of the inconveniences and pain that goes with pregnancy, I don't think she'd give it up if she had the choice.

That sounds exactly like my wife. She was able to have that early connection that, as an observer, I could only watch and guess as to the experience. Even through the second pregnancy sheer was able to enjoy the intimacy without worrying about the impending physical trauma that she had yet to endure. In fact, she'd forgotten just how painful it was....until it started. Then it all came flooding back. I spectated.




Besides, Petri dish reproduction eliminates the fun part.

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11-10-2013, 08:19 PM
RE: Question for Richard Dawkins » UPDATE
(11-10-2013 08:07 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Besides, Petri dish reproduction eliminates the fun part.

Goddamn right. Big Grin
We had a planned C-section, so delivery was a breeze. Recovery not so much but thank science for percocets!

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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