Question for anti-abortion atheists
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22-05-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(22-05-2014 12:03 PM)Walter Wrote:  ...

Why does the State, after birth, now tell the mother what to do with her child? Is it for the common good?

Because the collective knows more than the individual.

Live with it.

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22-05-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(22-05-2014 12:03 PM)Walter Wrote:  Why does the State, after birth, now tell the mother what to do with her child? Is it for the common good?

Yes, precisely - it is for the common good. It is for the common good that we make the killing of a person illegal.
There is no question that, after birth, there is a person.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-05-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Surprised this hasn't been posted yet.




#sigh
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23-05-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
My own perspective might help. My great great grandfather moved out to Utah with a bunch of folks who liked Joseph Smith. He had three wives; I am related to #3. My great grandfather left the Mormons and moved to Canada (Alberta), where Grandpa was born in 1897.

Moving to Grandma’s side, her brother, around 100 years ago and as a 3rd grader, went out the window of their one room school house and never came back. Grandma was very upset watching him go out that window. My great uncle became a professional cowboy.

I am confident that 21st Century atheists, humanists and free thinkers would appreciate the libertarianism of my great grandfather. An essay about him would fit very nicely among the thousands of others about freedom from religion.

However, I am less confident about how the other libertarian in my family would be viewed by today’s free thinkers. It is easy to imagine how present day educators, truant officers, child welfare workers and other caring people (religious and secular) would have reacted 100 years ago. “Freedom from religion is lovely, but freedom from school is a threat to the stability and future of the community. We will drag this boy back to school, regardless of what his mother wants”.

I love both stories.
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16-08-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
I don't understand why "ensoulment" is implicitly present if you think that life begins at conception. I'm an atheist, and I see that if you aren't happy with most atheists' abortion stance you are often lumped in with the conservative/religious groups that use abortion for their own agendas. I simply see the coming together of a sperm and an egg as the beginning of a life, and that it is unimportant when consciousness begins, if the zygote is left to develop a human being will be the result. I don't, obviously, believe in souls. I respect a woman's right to control her own body, but we are talking about another human being. I would even go as far as to say that a child that is the result of a rape has a right to his/her life, it isn't their fault how they were conceived. I read a contribution to a similar forum (on a site that promotes anti-abortion atheist debate) from someone who is the result of a parish priest raping a girl in his community, and the priest even conducted her First Communion (as far as I remember). This is obviously horrible, and I can't imagine how that girl coped with seeing her attacker happily going about in the community while she gave birth to and brought up the resulting child - along with the approbation of being a single mother. The poster's point was that he was grateful to be alive, the fact of who his father was didn't ruin or warp his life, and in fact his life was the only positive result of the crime that had been committed. It's a complex moral question, and I'm perfectly open to being persuaded towards other points of view. I'd been a lifetime anti-abortionist, accepting it as part-and-parcel of being an atheist, until I happened to start thinking about it more deeply.
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16-08-2014, 10:53 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2014 10:59 AM by phil.a.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(22-05-2014 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, precisely - it is for the common good. It is for the common good that we make the killing of a person illegal.
There is no question that, after birth, there is a person.

I guess it does rather depend on how "person" is defined, I guess the current abortion time limits seek to come to some reasonable opinion on that.

My own view is that reflective self-consciousness is a defining attribute of being human, and the interesting thing about that is that self-consciousness does not actually emerge in humans until we are about 18months old, e.g. prior to that, a baby won't pass the mirror test.

Even though many humans seem to think it's OK to kill animals who in fact do pass the mirror test, I shan't attempt however to argue the idea that it's fine to euthanise babies provided they are under the age of 18 months. :-)

Phil
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16-08-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
I wouldn't want to see abortion used as a birth control method but I'd imagine such a concern isn't warranted. I don't consider a clump of cells a human life but I think it's best that abortion be used as a last resort. It think that if my wife wanted to abort I'd try to convince her otherwise but ultimately the decision would be hers. In the end I don't think any man has the right to that decision. Certainly anyone not in the situation should have a say.
I guess that puts me in the pro choice camp.

Anyway, I don't think I'm equipped to answer the OP.
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26-08-2014, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2014 08:45 PM by jojorumbles.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
I am an Atheist and I do not support abortion. At face value this seems contradictory, but give me a chance to unpack this as well as preface it that this is my own personal opinions.

When I say I'm against abortion, it doesn't mean I'm against the right of others to have an abortion. This is a personal issue for me and the only person it affects is me. As a trans female, I am incapable of giving birth to children, however if there comes a day in medical science where I can give birth, I don't think I could go through with an abortion.

And in my personal opinion, being against abortion is not an "all or nothing" black & white issue. I see it as a moral objection sliding scale. The longer a pregnancy goes and the more time passes before getting an abortion, the more I object to it.

An immediate fertilized egg I have absolutely no problem with "aborting" it.
A week after fertilization I have some very minor objections to but overall I'm ok with it.
A month after fertilization I tend to frown on it.
Two or three months after fertilization, my moral objections start to kick in.
Four or more months after fertilization and I take a strong issue with.

I hope I'm explaining that right.

This opinion of mine isn't taking into account abortions due to rape, incest, or life crippling birth defects. Those are case by case issues and I'm ok with abortions in those instances. And to be honest, this is almost a non issue for me because there's only one person who's accountable to this moral objection sliding scale and that's me, which is pointless because I can't get pregnant.

I'm sure anyone can find contradictions, illogical assumptions, and other fallacies in my opinion of the subject. That's fine and I'll freely acknowledge them if brought to light. However this is how I feel about it, this is my morality, and it only affects one person which is me. Can I justify and rationalize my opinion and view? Probably not, to be frank, but that's just how I feel about it and that's OK for me.
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26-08-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(26-08-2014 08:42 PM)jojorumbles Wrote:  I am an Atheist and I do not support abortion. At face value this seems contradictory, but give me a chance to unpack this as well as preface it that this is my own personal opinions.

When I say I'm against abortion, it doesn't mean I'm against the right of others to have an abortion. This is a personal issue for me and the only person it affects is me. As a trans female, I am incapable of giving birth to children, however if there comes a day in medical science where I can give birth, I don't think I could go through with an abortion.

And in my personal opinion, being against abortion is not an "all or nothing" black & white issue. I see it as a moral objection sliding scale. The longer a pregnancy goes and the more time passes before getting an abortion, the more I object to it.

An immediate fertilized egg I have absolutely no problem with "aborting" it.
A week after fertilization I have some very minor objections to but overall I'm ok with it.
A month after fertilization I tend to frown on it.
Two or three months after fertilization, my moral objections start to kick in.
Four or more months after fertilization and I take a strong issue with.

I hope I'm explaining that right.

This opinion of mine isn't taking into account abortions due to rape, incest, or life crippling birth defects. Those are case by case issues and I'm ok with abortions in those instances. And to be honest, this is almost a non issue for me because there's only one person who's accountable to this moral objection sliding scale and that's me, which is pointless because I can't get pregnant.

I'm sure anyone can find contradictions, illogical assumptions, and other fallacies in my opinion of the subject. That's fine and I'll freely acknowledge them if brought to light. However this is how I feel about it, this is my morality, and it only affects one person which is me. Can I justify and rationalize my opinion and view? Probably not, to be frank, but that's just how I feel about it and that's OK for me.

Can you explain what it is that bothers you in the areas of a week to two to three months after fertilization? I believe (but I can't remember the exact timeline) that the fetus hasn't even fully developed it's nervous system at those points, and can't be considered in any form of the imagination a "person". Not to mention most women don't even know they are pregnant until a full month or more after fertilization. Then you've got a tough choice to make, plus a lot of hoops to jump through because of anti-choice legislation before you can even get an abortion.... Tick-tock. Just curious what makes you uncomfortable in those areas.

I respect that's how you feel regarding your own body, it's nice to have choices you can make for yourself Big Grin and I'd hope you would have compassion toward mothers who were victims of rape, incest, or those facing raising a child with severe mental deficiencies as you've hinted at in your post. I know that no matter how far along I was, I'd have an abortion if I knew my child would have a miserable existence for the entirety of it's life, not to mention cripple the rest of my life.

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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27-08-2014, 01:20 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(26-08-2014 09:44 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Can you explain what it is that bothers you in the areas of a week to two to three months after fertilization? I believe (but I can't remember the exact timeline) that the fetus hasn't even fully developed it's nervous system at those points, and can't be considered in any form of the imagination a "person".
Labelling something a "person" and then claiming that it is "wrong" to kill a person, is a bullshit excuse for interfering in a mother's decision.

It's her choice, let her decide.
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