Question for anti-abortion atheists
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27-08-2014, 03:39 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(26-08-2014 08:42 PM)jojorumbles Wrote:  I am an Atheist and I do not support abortion. At face value this seems contradictory, but give me a chance to unpack this as well as preface it that this is my own personal opinions.

When I say I'm against abortion, it doesn't mean I'm against the right of others to have an abortion. This is a personal issue for me and the only person it affects is me. As a trans female, I am incapable of giving birth to children, however if there comes a day in medical science where I can give birth, I don't think I could go through with an abortion.

And in my personal opinion, being against abortion is not an "all or nothing" black & white issue. I see it as a moral objection sliding scale. The longer a pregnancy goes and the more time passes before getting an abortion, the more I object to it.

An immediate fertilized egg I have absolutely no problem with "aborting" it.
A week after fertilization I have some very minor objections to but overall I'm ok with it.
A month after fertilization I tend to frown on it.
Two or three months after fertilization, my moral objections start to kick in.
Four or more months after fertilization and I take a strong issue with.

I hope I'm explaining that right.

This opinion of mine isn't taking into account abortions due to rape, incest, or life crippling birth defects. Those are case by case issues and I'm ok with abortions in those instances. And to be honest, this is almost a non issue for me because there's only one person who's accountable to this moral objection sliding scale and that's me, which is pointless because I can't get pregnant.

I'm sure anyone can find contradictions, illogical assumptions, and other fallacies in my opinion of the subject. That's fine and I'll freely acknowledge them if brought to light. However this is how I feel about it, this is my morality, and it only affects one person which is me. Can I justify and rationalize my opinion and view? Probably not, to be frank, but that's just how I feel about it and that's OK for me.

I think I got this right.
You, yourself personally would never have an abortion.
You believe it's OK for someone else to have an abortion as long as it meets your specific criteria?
You think your beliefs only effect you.
You can't justify or rationalize your beliefs and that's OK with you.
Correct?
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27-08-2014, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 08:20 AM by jojorumbles.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(27-08-2014 03:39 AM)pablo Wrote:  I think I got this right.
You, yourself personally would never have an abortion.
You believe it's OK for someone else to have an abortion as long as it meets your specific criteria?
You think your beliefs only effect you.
You can't justify or rationalize your beliefs and that's OK with you.
Correct?
Yes, for the most part.

"You believe it's OK for someone else to have an abortion as long as it meets your specific criteria?"

No not exactly. Yes in the sense that it fits my personal criteria, no in the sense that I would not attempt tostop them going through with it.

I'll certainly give someone an earful if they wait until very late in the pregnancy to abort because they don't feel ready or whatever. But if its reasonably early, I'll grumble to myself a little and let it go.

I'm a little cautious about defining where to draw the line to how long after fertilization it becomes objectionable to abort. That needle can be pushed back and forth for all kinds of reasons. Many states legislate 20 weeks which is five months. I think five months is a reasonable period of time to decide if they're ready or not ready to have children.

Some want to decrease that time and some want to increase that time. I've heard some even argue in the other extreme end that the mother should have the right to abort at anytime, even if its the day before giving birth. This is where I would voice the most objection to.

Remember, to me its not an all-or-nothing issue. There is no clear answer in either direction. I think the longer the pregnancy goes on before abortion, the more I object.
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27-08-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(27-08-2014 08:16 AM)jojorumbles Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 03:39 AM)pablo Wrote:  I think I got this right.
You, yourself personally would never have an abortion.
You believe it's OK for someone else to have an abortion as long as it meets your specific criteria?
You think your beliefs only effect you.
You can't justify or rationalize your beliefs and that's OK with you.
Correct?
Yes, for the most part.

"You believe it's OK for someone else to have an abortion as long as it meets your specific criteria?"

No not exactly. Yes in the sense that it fits my personal criteria, no in the sense that I would not attempt tostop them going through with it.

I'll certainly give someone an earful if they wait until very late in the pregnancy to abort because they don't feel ready or whatever. But if its reasonably early, I'll grumble to myself a little and let it go.

I'm a little cautious about defining where to draw the line to how long after fertilization it becomes objectionable to abort. That needle can be pushed back and forth for all kinds of reasons. Many states legislate 20 weeks which is five months. I think five months is a reasonable period of time to decide if they're ready or not ready to have children.

Some want to decrease that time and some want to increase that time. I've heard some even argue in the other extreme end that the mother should have the right to abort at anytime, even if its the day before giving birth. This is where I would voice the most objection to.

Remember, to me its not an all-or-nothing issue. There is no clear answer in either direction. I think the longer the pregnancy goes on before abortion, the more I object.

I understand where you are coming from. It is similar to my position except I have no problem at drawing a hard line at viability. I will make a disclaimer that these do not include cases where the mother's life is at risk.
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27-08-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
jojorumbles,

I am against abortion in general and have increasing discomfort with the practice later in a pregnancy. I think we as a society should use effective preventative mechanisms to reduce abortion rates. That is: Good quality sex education and access to birth control. I suspect you fall into this same camp.

However, and this is a big however. I am deeply uncomfortable with imposing restrictions on access to abortion, particularly through legal sanctions. I want abortion to be readily available to those who need it, and I am opposed to putting laws on the books that interfere with medical decisions made between a woman and her doctor. We know that such laws result in women dying through unsafe abortions and through lack of access to abortion in medically necessary situations.

My position is one of anti-abortion pro-choice... which I think is really the position of many if not most pro-choice advocates. The pro-life position is not necessarily more anti-abortion than the pro-choice position. Pro-life advocates putting legal sanctions on doctors and women for obtaining abortions but often corresponds with advocating bad sex education and poor access to contraception. To me those should be the clear area of focus as these are the only effective preventative mechanism.

The pro-life position is often tied up in religious dogma that getting pregnant through ignorance, lack of birth control, stupidity, or often even in cases of rape as a crime that must be punished by going through the whole pregnancy. I absolutely reject that dogma even when it is veiled in "life of the child" rhetoric. I trust women to make decisions to make choices in this area and only in cases of mental incompetency would seek to override such a decision. Ultimately I see it as a woman's right to choose, and I trust her to make good choices when adequate information and tools are available to her.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-08-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(27-08-2014 05:19 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  and I trust her to make good choices when adequate information and tools are available to her.
Even if she makes "bad" choices, it's her choice, not your's, not government's.
I don't know why people take it upon themselves to interfere in the affairs of others.
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29-08-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
[/size]I myself am an "Anti-Abortion-Athiest". My main reason behind it is simply that I believe everything happens for a reason, but unlike most religious individuals that reason to me is not god. The reason to me is that your body decided to concieve a child. Your body created the fetus, therefor you were physically designed to withhold said child. Everything happening for a reason is just my idea that you are drawn to where you belong and your destiny by this path you create on your own. So, if you end up with child, you did it to yourself, and you did it for a reason.[size=medium]
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29-08-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(29-08-2014 08:32 PM)beautiflyopenminded Wrote:  My main reason behind it is simply that I believe everything happens for a reason, ...So, if you end up with child, you did it to yourself, and you did it for a reason.[size=medium]

By this reasoning..
Humans devised safe abortion procedures for a reason, a woman chooses to have an abortion for a reason...
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30-08-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(27-08-2014 07:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 05:19 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  and I trust her to make good choices when adequate information and tools are available to her.
Even if she makes "bad" choices, it's her choice, not your's, not government's.

Quite right. I'm using a bit of shorthand here. I trust the she can make the decisions that are good for her and am comfortable that apart from possible information she may not otherwise have at hand there is no reason for my opinion to be relevant or useful to her.

What I really mean to say is that we when we talk about how bad abortion is we inherently depersonalise it. When abortion occurs it does not happen as an impersonal force of nature or force of law. It occurs when a woman carrying a fetus makes a decision about her health, her welfare, and her future. When we talk about taking action to prevent abortion at this stage we are necessarily talking about overriding the choices that she would otherwise make in conjunction with her doctor. As a rule that is something we only do to intellectually incompetent people, not reasoning thinking able adults. If we are to meaningfully impact abortion rates this is both the least effective time to stage an intervention and the most damaging time to do so. We should be taking effective action to make information and birth control available to people who need that information.

Given the harm we know comes from trying to impact abortion rates by banning abortion itself I think the case is clear that if you are against abortion the actions you should be taking to reduce abortion are to increase the availability of good sex education and to increase the availability of good birth control. I think once religion is stripped away this is by far the most reasonable course of action if you want to reduce abortion rates. The worst course of action is to reduce sex education and reduce access to contraception. Of course it is this worst course that is proposed by many religious pro-life activists, making their pro-life position far more pro-abortion than comparable pro-choice activist positions.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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30-08-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(30-08-2014 08:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I trust the she can make the decisions that are good for her and am comfortable that apart from possible information she may not otherwise have at hand there is no reason for my opinion to be relevant or useful to her.
I'm getting nitpicky here. I think you are well balanced, have put thought into this and I agree with your reasonable outcome.
But... (and of course any but seems to negate all the words that come before the but LOL)
I don't think you need to "trust" or be "comfortable".
It is her life, and her decision. Sure it means that she may kill a perfectly healthy unborn, possibly even for a trivial decision. Still, it is her decision, her life, and the killing of the unborn has no impact to you. So you don't need to enact any trust and whether you are comfortable or not is irrelevant to "allowing" her to do this.

(30-08-2014 08:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  When we talk about taking action to prevent abortion at this stage we are necessarily talking about overriding the choices that she would otherwise make in conjunction with her doctor
If we go down this path then we are interferring in something that is her business and not ours.

(30-08-2014 08:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  As a rule that is something we only do to intellectually incompetent people, not reasoning thinking able adults.
Even then, IMO we interfere only if they are a danger to society.

(30-08-2014 08:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  If we are to meaningfully impact abortion rates this is both the least effective time to stage an intervention and the most damaging time to do so. We should be taking effective action to make information and birth control available to people who need that information.
I think education is key. In a thriving society, where education is free and can lead one to think that their future matters and that they can fuck up a great future by getting pregnant young or committing crimes etc then they will be less likely to do it. Those that have nothing to lose on the other hand can appear to behave (self)destructively.
And education specifically on sex is also valuable as people don't instinctively know the facts. Can you get pregnant on the first time? Can you get pregnant standing up? Can you take a shower straight away and wash the AIDS away? Can condoms fail? What are the side-effects of the pill..., How much does it cost to bring up a child? What is the impact on a mother's life? Can she go to school and party with her friends as well as care for a new born? What happens to abandoned children, adopted children...

(30-08-2014 08:11 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The worst course of action is to reduce sex education and reduce access to contraception. Of course it is this worst course that is proposed by many religious pro-life activists, making their pro-life position far more pro-abortion than comparable pro-choice activist positions.
These people put all their trust into their religious leaders whom they are told have a direct line to god. Their world is black and white, sex is "bad" unless you are trying to make babies. Giving sex education or contraceptives is facilitating and approving of "bad" activities.

You can't reason with them because they think their position is backed by god and god is not to be questioned.
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