Question for anti-abortion atheists
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18-10-2011, 12:12 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(18-10-2011 07:55 AM)17thknight Wrote:  All human life is to be preserved, as a moral imperative. A human being is not a "mistake" that one does away with down a drain so as to prevent an inconveniencing the parent.

Does that include Japanese babies? Afghan babies? Palestinian babies? Babies born with addiction? Very young rape victims at risk in childbirth? Children with chronic ailments who can't get health insurance? Children living in refugee camps under threat of bombs and cholera? HIV positive African babies?
We can - and do - subject infants to fates much worse that not being born.
I think it's easier to believe in the sanctity of human life in the abstract - as in unborn - than to respect actual, present human lives.

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18-10-2011, 12:17 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Of course who is to say what life is better than no life at all? Perhaps those born with illness or in unfortunate areas would still rather be born than not? I am pro-abortion but I don't think your argument is the best for displaying why abortion is a good option for some couples.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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18-10-2011, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2011 12:29 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
As one doesn't believe in a before-life, after-life or any kind of alternate-to-life other than oblivion, i don't see how not living could elicit a response or attitude of any kind, let alone a comparison to living.
Anyway, i'm not arguing for abortion. That wasn't a comment on the relative quality of life of babies and not-babies, but on the convictions of people who consider themselves morally qualified to judge the value of other's lives, circumstances and choices. It's a lot easier and cheaper to prevent an abortion than to prevent a premature, unnecessary, protracted and painful death.

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18-10-2011, 12:32 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Agreed on both points. Even though there is no before-life, that does not mean that I do not value the unborn. In fact, correcting global concerns like pollution and degradation of the environment should be done for future generations, i.e. the unborn. We make decisions for future generations every day, and so do other animals. Preservation of our own lives is part of this. If we don't survive we can't reproduce, this could be seen as preservation of life and unborn life alike.

And I strongly agree with the latter statement. If the average responsibility of individuals were to increase, a lot of unnecessary abortions and unwanted births could be avoided. Education is a big part of this and I hope that this becomes a stronger influence in the future. And part of that is to eliminate this demonization of sex and birth control as perpetrated by religion.

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18-10-2011, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2011 01:13 PM by Hierophant.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(18-10-2011 07:55 AM)17thknight Wrote:  
(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?

I am vehemently anti-abortion and I explicitly reject the assumption in this sentence. All human life is to be preserved, as a moral imperative. A human being is not a "mistake" that one does away with down a drain so as to prevent an inconveniencing the parent.

I would write significantly more on this if I had the time, but I have a test to go to in 20 minutes and a term paper to write. Rest assured I'll return to this topic within a week.

Okay. You haven't given any indication as to why you reject my assumption, though. Again, I am not asking why you reject the pro-choice position or what else you believe, but specifically about the proposition that "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception." I really want to know specifically why anti-abortion atheists believe this proposition, since I see no other basis for it other than ensoulment. So if you could answer that, that'd be great.
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18-10-2011, 03:34 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(18-10-2011 12:32 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Agreed on both points. Even though there is no before-life, that does not mean that I do not value the unborn. In fact, correcting global concerns like pollution and degradation of the environment should be done for future generations, i.e. the unborn. We make decisions for future generations every day, and so do other animals. Preservation of our own lives is part of this. If we don't survive we can't reproduce, this could be seen as preservation of life and unborn life alike.

Yet, with each birth, never mind unwanted ones, we get further from that goal. Thus causing infinitely more suffering as a whole.

Quote:And I strongly agree with the latter statement. If the average responsibility of individuals were to increase, a lot of unnecessary abortions and unwanted births could be avoided. Education is a big part of this and I hope that this becomes a stronger influence in the future. And part of that is to eliminate this demonization of sex and birth control as perpetrated by religion.
This is certainly true, but I question just how much this information is kept secret from teenagers today. On average, I do not think the education is lacking, just a lack of responsibility. Of course that lack of responsibility could be greatly due to the taboo that is sex. Every time I see a kid buy condoms for the first time they seem scared shitless, and as soon as they get out the door they look like they just got away scot-free from robbing the place.


PS:
How do you feel about the day after pill, and the way its treated in the US?
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19-10-2011, 11:54 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
I am for/ against abortion at the same time. I am totally fine with abortion before 2 months into the pregnancy. I am against abortion past that point because it in my opinion has started it's form as human. It isn't a cluster of cells at 8 weeks, it has a heart, muscle contract, the brain has synapses firing, the heart is beating.

People might not agree with that and that's fine. It is a human to me when the brain and heart become active, along with it taking human form. But as I will say again, anything prior to roughly 2 months I am fine with the abortion.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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19-10-2011, 02:04 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Great, but again, not an answer to my question.
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19-10-2011, 03:01 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?

You may not get many responses to this, ever, because the question is couched in a language that most atheists reject.
People, whatever else they believe, have strong feelings about reproduction. Instinct, sentiment, evolutionary imperative, tribal loyalty, ego... whatever combination of biological and emotional factors may combine to form a strong conviction, it will be difficult for most people to articulate. They may not even want to try.
Take this example as one facet of those strong feelings: It may not have a soul, but it has the DNA of my species, and that makes it too precious to waste.

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19-10-2011, 04:01 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(19-10-2011 03:01 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  You may not get many responses to this, ever, because the question is couched in a language that most atheists reject.

Well, that's my point exactly. I don't see how any atheist could justify such a proposition. That's why I would like to know how they do.
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