Question for anti-abortion atheists
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19-10-2011, 06:10 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
You might have to accept the possibility that alignment on this issue is more political than theological; more about social control (who has it over whom) than about the foetus.

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20-10-2011, 01:16 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(19-10-2011 06:10 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  You might have to accept the possibility that alignment on this issue is more political than theological; more about social control (who has it over whom) than about the foetus.

What in the hell does social control have to do with the belief that "life begins at conception"?
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20-10-2011, 06:40 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
The cells that begin dividing and form the embryo are technically living. Conscious? No. But alive? Yes.

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20-10-2011, 08:02 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(20-10-2011 01:16 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  What in the hell does social control have to do with the belief that "life begins at conception"?

Nothing. Politics isn't about belief, it's about power. People actually.... gasp... lie about what they believe.

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20-10-2011, 08:10 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
This is a fun topic I like this forum.

Being pro or anti abortion is a strange thing for me to understand. Personna;y I think it all depends on the cirumstance. Examples

If you and your significant other "screw up" (lol) and a child is made... No abortion for you.

You have a one-night-stand a a child is made....NO abortion for you.

You get raped and become pregnant... You get the green light to go ahead and get an abortion.

Saying that all human life is precious is an outright lie. I know of a few people that coould be killed off and it would be positive for this world. I'm going to sound like a dick for a second so bear with me.
Just because a few fetuses get aborted doesn't matter as kids die all the time and no one gives a flying F$&@. focus on keeping the kids that are currently alive...alive, before we worry about the unborn. Priorities people, GET THEM.

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20-10-2011, 01:35 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(20-10-2011 08:02 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(20-10-2011 01:16 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  What in the hell does social control have to do with the belief that "life begins at conception"?

Nothing. Politics isn't about belief, it's about power. People actually.... gasp... lie about what they believe.

I get the feeling you're just turning around the pot. What is it you're trying to say exactly?


(20-10-2011 06:40 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The cells that begin dividing and form the embryo are technically living. Conscious? No. But alive? Yes.

So are cancer cells. So what? What does that demonstrate? Surely you don't believe that we shouldn't cure cancer.
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20-10-2011, 01:54 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(20-10-2011 01:35 PM)Hierophant Wrote:  
(20-10-2011 08:02 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(20-10-2011 01:16 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  What in the hell does social control have to do with the belief that "life begins at conception"?

Nothing. Politics isn't about belief, it's about power. People actually.... gasp... lie about what they believe.

I get the feeling you're just turning around the pot. What is it you're trying to say exactly?

I've been trying to say, exactly, that this isn't a simple matter of what one believes about souls or the beginning of life or morality. We also have to consider instinct, emotion, sentiment (which is distinct from emotion in that sentiment is fed by culture instead of biology and personal experience) tradition, social status, the burden of legal and social precedent we rarely think about or question, hypocrisy and self-delusion.
It's just too complicated to line up pro's and anti's on any single aspect of the issue.

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20-10-2011, 02:40 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(20-10-2011 01:54 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  I've been trying to say, exactly, that this isn't a simple matter of what one believes about souls or the beginning of life or morality. We also have to consider instinct, emotion, sentiment (which is distinct from emotion in that sentiment is fed by culture instead of biology and personal experience) tradition, social status, the burden of legal and social precedent we rarely think about or question, hypocrisy and self-delusion.

I never said that what one believes about souls or the beginning of life determines everything we believe about abortion. I don't know why you think I do.

Quote:It's just too complicated to line up pro's and anti's on any single aspect of the issue.

I am not "lining up" anyone. I am asking a honest question. I honestly kinda resent your implications here. You're acting as if I want to attack anti-abortion atheists. That is not my intention at all! I am trying to clarify a specific point. I don't know the answer and I am asking them (or you, if you are one of them) to give me their personal answers. I am already well aware of the complex motivations pushing people to adopt various positions. So there's really no reason for you to read me the Riot Act of 1714.
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20-10-2011, 03:57 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Quote:I never said that what one believes about souls or the beginning of life determines everything we believe about abortion. I don't know why you think I do.

Because:
Quote: I am interested in hearing from anti-abortion atheists on the following question:

How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?

What was i supposed to think?
There is no implication to resent, since i was only guessing at possible answers when you seemed frustrated with the dearth of responses. Eventually, i also became frustrated, trying to figure out what you actually want, when you kept saying, no not that. I didn't think you intended to attack anyone; i merely suspect you won't get whatever you do want, and keep trying to say why.

More explanation of my personal position on the issue (from one who has been active in getting legislation passed/ changed, and has worked in health care and counseling - it might be shared by others - who knows?):
I have no particular feeling about foetuses. All cells are alive, including the ovum and sperm before they unite. Both are produced by the human body in numbers far exceeding what could possibly be needed for procreation: the vast majority are expendable. So are a great many eggs that are fertilized too soon, too late, in the wrong place, in the absence of nourishment... whatever. The reproductive mechanism isn't any more remarkable than the mechanism of oxygenating blood.
But people feel strongly about it. They need to, or they'd find babies - gestating, birthing, nurturing, tolerating - just too damn much trouble.

So... when a couple desires a baby, the second the woman knows she's conceived, she thinks of that little clump of cells as a child - a tiny replica of herself, her beloved, their parents, their tribe; the future of their species. If the conception took place under inclement circumstances, or something else goes wrong, and no baby materializes, both partners are disappointed - for the woman, it's a traumatic event that results in sorrow, anger, frustration, feelings of inadequacy, and guilt, followed by a period of real mourning, almost as if there had been an actual child. These are not rational reactions; they're biological, emotional and cultural; and how severe they are varies widely, because it depends on a complex of factors.

Now, when a woman conceives without intention, when she does not want a baby, the hormonal, emotional and cultural factors don't change in any radical way. Yes, she may decide to abort, but it's rarely a simple or easy decision; it usually has some repercussions.
Also, no society has a single, simple attitude. That's why it's such a difficult issue to legislate, to discuss, to agree on.
And that's why i'm against abortion as a routine birth control method; would like to see it used only as a last resort. I far prefer more effective prevention, and when that fails, support for either the mother keeping the baby or giving it for adoption.

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20-10-2011, 04:10 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
That's fine, but I'll keep waiting for anti-abortion atheists to give me their answers.
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