Question for anti-abortion atheists
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-04-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(07-04-2014 11:00 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  I have given up the idea of having an "intelligent" position.

If you don't have an intelligent position, then you have an ignorant position. Why would you ever want to have a position on an issue without having intelligent reasons to believe that it is a good position?

Quote: When people lack intelligence, it certainly does not stop them from continuing to make a change in the world. . .

And changes in the world that come from the unintelligent are almost always detrimental.

Quote:. . .but I will admit that intelligence can make a difference in whether the outcome is good or bad.

Now you're getting it! Thumbsup

More Min Gee Ziss
[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 07:04 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  I understand that there are some anti-abortion atheists on this forum. I already sent my question to the Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League, but I figured asking people directly on this forum wouldn't hurt either.

I am interested in hearing from anti-abortion atheists on the following question:

How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?

Furthermore, if you actually believe that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can be justified by some other means than an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception, then what is this justification? (I do not believe that such a justification exists, but I am open to suggestions)

I would probably qualify as pro life since I am anti-death penalty, war, euthanasia and have major issues with our current abortion laws. I do not believe life, etc begins a conception. IMO there is some point between conception and viability those things happen. Where that point is I really do not have a concrete answer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 07:04 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  I understand that there are some anti-abortion atheists on this forum. I already sent my question to the Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League, but I figured asking people directly on this forum wouldn't hurt either.

I am interested in hearing from anti-abortion atheists on the following question:

How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?

Furthermore, if you actually believe that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can be justified by some other means than an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception, then what is this justification? (I do not believe that such a justification exists, but I am open to suggestions)

I would probably qualify as pro life since I am anti-death penalty, war, euthanasia and have major issues with our current abortion laws. I do not believe life, etc begins a conception. IMO there is some point between conception and viability those things happen. Where that point is I really do not have a concrete answer.

Wazzel - interesting. What is your opinion on euthanasia and why are you against it?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 12:12 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 07:04 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I would probably qualify as pro life since I am anti-death penalty, war, euthanasia and have major issues with our current abortion laws. I do not believe life, etc begins a conception. IMO there is some point between conception and viability those things happen. Where that point is I really do not have a concrete answer.

Wazzel - interesting. What is your opinion on euthanasia and why are you against it?

Mostly from the fact I think life should be allowed to play itself out naturally. I do not support keeping people alive at all cost either. Some time people need to be allowed to die. That is probably the biggest reason. There are also some concerns that it would be used to end care against the wishes of the person being cared for, becasue the care giver was no longer willing to continue.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 12:46 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 12:12 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Wazzel - interesting. What is your opinion on euthanasia and why are you against it?

Mostly from the fact I think life should be allowed to play itself out naturally. I do not support keeping people alive at all cost either. Some time people need to be allowed to die. That is probably the biggest reason. There are also some concerns that it would be used to end care against the wishes of the person being cared for, becasue the care giver was no longer willing to continue.

Do we have a problem with that? I don't see any evidence if we do. Just doing a quick think-back, perhaps the closest you could get to suggesting there is a problem with that might be the Terry Shaivo case, in which her husband was arguing for the right to "pull the plug" while her parents wanted to keep her "plugged in"; and the husband argued it was Shavio's wishes he was tying to honor. Obviously, the problem could be circumnavigated by living wills. We already have laws against killing persons (born), which is why the DNR or living will is so often times necessary.

In terms of abortion, I first admit I did not read the whole thread (it's 7 pages!) so please pardon me if I say something that's been addressed. But I did skim, and I saw a few posts where folks equated the issue of abortion with the death penalty. It's not the same. Yes, abortion is a medical term with a definition, but the issue[i] of abortion is more correctly termed as the issue of choice. I would hazard to guess that no one (certainly no one I know) that is pro choice is an advocate of killing potential human lives. What they are (including myself) is respectul of someone else's right to claim the same rights I claim for myself, and I think sometimes that issue gets lot in this conversation.

I am not pro-choice because I believe abortion is great as an option of last resort in terms of birth control. I am pro-choice because I respect another woman's right to make that choice for herself, based on her own determination of her circumstances. Science may never tell us at what stage of development a clump of cells becomes a human being. For that reason, laws much err on the side of what facts we are sure are not in question: a woman who is pregnant IS a human being, and her rights must be paramount. Not because she's bigger and stronger, but because this is the only fact which is not in question.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 12:46 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 12:12 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Wazzel - interesting. What is your opinion on euthanasia and why are you against it?

Mostly from the fact I think life should be allowed to play itself out naturally. I do not support keeping people alive at all cost either. Some time people need to be allowed to die. That is probably the biggest reason. There are also some concerns that it would be used to end care against the wishes of the person being cared for, becasue the care giver was no longer willing to continue.

Interesting. I should start a thread on this as I do not want to derail this one.

I guess I don't see why you should care if someone wants to kill themselves sooner, with dignity, instead of letting "it play out naturally"

Natural is not synonymous with "Good" or "better", and I'm not sure why people keep stating that it is. Arsenic is "natural", that doesn't make it good.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cathym112's post
08-04-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 01:48 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 12:46 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Mostly from the fact I think life should be allowed to play itself out naturally. I do not support keeping people alive at all cost either. Some time people need to be allowed to die. That is probably the biggest reason. There are also some concerns that it would be used to end care against the wishes of the person being cared for, becasue the care giver was no longer willing to continue.

Interesting. I should start a thread on this as I do not want to derail this one.

I guess I don't see why you should care if someone wants to kill themselves sooner, with dignity, instead of letting "it play out naturally"

Natural is not synonymous with "Good" or "better", and I'm not sure why people keep stating that it is. Arsenic is "natural", that doesn't make it good.
I have a very hard time with killing, even for good reasons. I can only come up with two valid reasons for ever killing any animal, humans included, excepet in reason 1.
1 - you are going to eat it (humans not included)
2 - you need to defend yourself from it.

Your points are valid, BTW.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes wazzel's post
08-04-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
I just wanted to mention that there could be a posterior I arguments against abortion (I.e. there effects). Such as sexual irresponsibility, devaluation of human dignity, or some other such thing.

My only secular a priori argument is that I believe that any existence is better than no existence and everyone should have the right to exist.

Also, although probably really rare, being an atheist does not necessarily mean that you don't believe in a soul.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:35 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I just wanted to mention that there could be a posterior I arguments against abortion (I.e. there effects). Such as sexual irresponsibility, devaluation of human dignity, or some other such thing.

My only secular a priori argument is that I believe that any existence is better than no existence and everyone should have the right to exist.

Also, although probably really rare, being an atheist does not necessarily mean that you don't believe in a soul.

Tell that to the baby who died after sitting 8 days in his own shit strapped into a car seat while his mom and dad played video games. Or the 4 month old baby who died while her mom's boyfriend was raping her after being invited to do so by the mother.

Any existence is not better than no existence and some babies deserve the dignity of being aborted rather than born to parents who are incapable of loving or caring for them.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Losty's post
08-04-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:35 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  any existence is better than no existence

How on earth do you figure that? I most certainly don't share that sentiment, it makes no sense.

Perhaps you have not felt true empathy with actual suffering?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: