Question for anti-abortion atheists
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08-04-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:35 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I just wanted to mention that there could be a posterior I arguments against abortion (I.e. there effects). Such as sexual irresponsibility, devaluation of human dignity, or some other such thing.

My only secular a priori argument is that I believe that any existence is better than no existence and everyone should have the right to exist.

Also, although probably really rare, being an atheist does not necessarily mean that you don't believe in a soul.

I disagree. I don't have the right to any part of your body to extend my own life, nor does any other human have the *right* to any part of my body to extend its own life. Bodily autonomy is a difficult issue to get around in the conversation of whose rights are more valuable. In order to extend rights to a life form which cannot exist without your body, YOU are forced to give up your rights to your own body. No one should be forced to do that. Once you do that, a woman's uterus becomes a potential crime scene once a month.
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08-04-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  How do you reconcile being an atheist with the fact that the proposition "life/consciousness/personhood/beingness/etc begins at conception" can only be justified by an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception?
That's a strawman.

(17-10-2011 03:37 AM)Hierophant Wrote:  ...can be justified by some other means than an implicit or explicit belief in ensoulment at conception, then what is this justification? (I do not believe that such a justification exists, but I am open to suggestions)
Maybe they believe that killing human beings is immoral and they recognise that a human fetus is a human being (thus no requirement for a belief in a soul).
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08-04-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:46 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:35 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  any existence is better than no existence

How on earth do you figure that? I most certainly don't share that sentiment, it makes no sense.

Perhaps you have not felt true empathy with actual suffering?

What do you mean by actual suffering. That seems to be a meaningless phrase. All suffering is a spectrum. So have I suffered? Yes. I can to a certain extent extrapolate that to more intense suffering. I personally believe that at no point is suffering worse then living no matter what. I think existence itself is the greatest wonder.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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08-04-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:57 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:46 PM)Dom Wrote:  How on earth do you figure that? I most certainly don't share that sentiment, it makes no sense.

Perhaps you have not felt true empathy with actual suffering?

What do you mean by actual suffering. That seems to be a meaningless phrase. All suffering is a spectrum. So have I suffered? Yes. I can to a certain extent extrapolate that to more intense suffering. I personally believe that at no point is suffering worse then living no matter what. I think existence itself is the greatest wonder.

Well, if you prefer immense suffering to relief, you are most welcome to it. Just don't force others into that.

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08-04-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:46 PM)Mat0816 Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:35 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I just wanted to mention that there could be a posterior I arguments against abortion (I.e. there effects). Such as sexual irresponsibility, devaluation of human dignity, or some other such thing.

My only secular a priori argument is that I believe that any existence is better than no existence and everyone should have the right to exist.

Also, although probably really rare, being an atheist does not necessarily mean that you don't believe in a soul.

I disagree. I don't have the right to any part of your body to extend my own life, nor does any other human have the *right* to any part of my body to extend its own life. Bodily autonomy is a difficult issue to get around in the conversation of whose rights are more valuable. In order to extend rights to a life form which cannot exist without your body, YOU are forced to give up your rights to your own body. No one should be forced to do that. Once you do that, a woman's uterus becomes a potential crime scene once a month.

In terms of secular argument, I think that in cases of rape then one could make the argument that abortion is permissable, but other than that you made the choice to bring support the existence of this life and as such have the duty to see it through until it is viable.

Also I did not understand the last sentence.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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08-04-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 06:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:57 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  What do you mean by actual suffering. That seems to be a meaningless phrase. All suffering is a spectrum. So have I suffered? Yes. I can to a certain extent extrapolate that to more intense suffering. I personally believe that at no point is suffering worse then living no matter what. I think existence itself is the greatest wonder.

Well, if you prefer immense suffering to relief, you are most welcome to it. Just don't force others into that.

Yes but who judges intense suffering. With abortion you are also forcing the idea that there death would be better than there life. Nick Vujicic was born without arms or legs and since it was misdiagnosed, his mother didn't have an abortion. He, incidentally is a very strong opponent of abortion.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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08-04-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 07:07 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, if you prefer immense suffering to relief, you are most welcome to it. Just don't force others into that.

Yes but who judges intense suffering. With abortion you are also forcing the idea that there death would be better than there life. Nick Vujicic was born without arms or legs and since it was misdiagnosed, his mother didn't have an abortion. He, incidentally is a very strong opponent of abortion.

An embryo is not alive until 6 months, hence it cannot die before that time. You have to be alive to die.

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08-04-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 07:07 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  With abortion you are also forcing the idea that there death would be better than there life.
Being pro-choice isn't forcing anything.
It's a stance of "The mother is the best person to decide rather than government or strangers"

The mother has her choice, no-one is forcing her to have an abortion.

Just because a person is pro-choice, it doesn't mean that they would have an abortion themselves.
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08-04-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 07:07 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, if you prefer immense suffering to relief, you are most welcome to it. Just don't force others into that.

Yes but who judges intense suffering. With abortion you are also forcing the idea that there death would be better than there life. Nick Vujicic was born without arms or legs and since it was misdiagnosed, his mother didn't have an abortion. He, incidentally is a very strong opponent of abortion.

*their
Refer to my comment in the previous page.

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08-04-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(08-04-2014 07:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  An embryo is not alive until 6 months, hence it cannot die before that time. You have to be alive to die.
This sounds either like pseudo science or maybe some political definition of "alive".
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