Question for anti-abortion atheists
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29-04-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
The Only reason the topic of abortion comes up at all - anywhere - any time - for any reason - is because we live in a society that believes women are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds as to end a pregnancy or continue with said pregnancy. Therefore there's discussion about developing brains and spines, etc......and both camps- For & Against -petition that their arguments be heard and considered........and on and on and on........

when really it's up to the woman who's going to abort or carry.


period.

If it were men who got pregnant and gave birth - it would never have even came up as a topic.........
ever.


Weeping

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29-04-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(29-04-2014 01:41 PM)Bible Belt Brawler Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 06:57 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  What do you mean by actual suffering. That seems to be a meaningless phrase. All suffering is a spectrum. So have I suffered? Yes. I can to a certain extent extrapolate that to more intense suffering. I personally believe that at no point is suffering worse then living no matter what. I think existence itself is the greatest wonder.

I agree. Existence is the one thing I cherish above all other states. To live is better than to have never lived at all, I say.

If you didn't exist, you wouldn't exactly be around to miss it.

I can get the sentiment, but as stated it's pretty meaningless.

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30-04-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(29-04-2014 02:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  The Only reason the topic of abortion comes up at all - anywhere - any time - for any reason - is because we live in a society that believes women are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds as to end a pregnancy or continue with said pregnancy. Therefore there's discussion about developing brains and spines, etc......and both camps- For & Against -petition that their arguments be heard and considered........and on and on and on........

when really it's up to the woman who's going to abort or carry.


period.

If it were men who got pregnant and gave birth - it would never have even came up as a topic.........
ever.


Weeping

So to address your red herring. While some people may believe the way you suggest that is not the case for all or even a significant minority. At best that is a fringe group. Most religious people don't even make that argument.

If one actually thinks that women as a whole are that bad then they are ignorant. If one attempts to assert as you do they are just as ignorant.

Your argument is divisive and doesn't actually track with the facts.

For me personally I do not believe that I have any right to tell someone how to act or what to do. If you want to have an abortion...Fine. If you want to smoke crack...Fine. It's none of my business. Until your actions effect the freedoms of another person I don't give a crap. You are the only person who knows what is best for you.
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30-04-2014, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 12:25 PM by WitchSabrina.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(30-04-2014 07:52 AM)Krusty_47 Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 02:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  The Only reason the topic of abortion comes up at all - anywhere - any time - for any reason - is because we live in a society that believes women are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds as to end a pregnancy or continue with said pregnancy. Therefore there's discussion about developing brains and spines, etc......and both camps- For & Against -petition that their arguments be heard and considered........and on and on and on........

when really it's up to the woman who's going to abort or carry.


period.

If it were men who got pregnant and gave birth - it would never have even came up as a topic.........
ever.


Weeping

So to address your red herring.

Not even a full sentence - but ok.
Actually I meant no red herring. Just an observation added to a discussion regarding the topic of abortion. Maybe you're more accustomed to talking with people who are prepared to argue? I'm really not.
Didn't mean to upset anyone's apple cart with a simple comment/observation to a discussion on the forum.
In fact, if you check my record here regarding the topic of abortion - I say this almost every time the subject is broached. Why? Because it's a simple matter of fact I'd like people to remember. Why? Because it matters in how abortion - pros and cons - are dealt with. Much of our legal system is still managed in a patriarchal fashion; which is something that **should** have died out centuries ago.
Mheh - it has not.
Go figure.

Hmmmmmmmm food for thought.


Quote: While some people may believe the way you suggest that is not the case for all or even a significant minority.

And you know this how? You've bothered to research and gather the data/opinions regarding this simple observation? Or are you just talking out of your ass because you decided to get your back-up and be snotty over a comment made in a forum topic - NOT directed at You in any shape, form or fashion - Na - just decided to be pissy and start factoid-ing ?
Dude........
if you really want to combat what I say at least bring something to the table other than just a pissy attiude.



Quote: At best that is a fringe group. Most religious people don't even make that argument.

Not a fucking clue what you're going on about. And since you didn't bother to give grounds in your queer debate - I'm not sure why you're bothering plathering on with it.

Quote: If one actually thinks that women as a whole are that bad then they are ignorant. If one attempts to assert as you do they are just as ignorant.

You're funny.

Quote: Your argument is divisive and doesn't actually track with the facts.

Pro Tip: I didn't make an argument. There's no argument from me. Period.
You're making an argument with my observation. Please apply your *rules* to yourself when you try to enforce them upon others. Otherwise you look shallow and glib or arrogant.

Quote: For me personally I do not believe that I have any right to tell someone how to act or what to do. If you want to have an abortion...Fine. If you want to smoke crack...Fine. It's none of my business. Until your actions effect the freedoms of another person I don't give a crap. You are the only person who knows what is best for you.

This stuff ^ --- this is all good. And I commend you for that thinking. It's intelligent and creates equals in our society. I truly wish more people thought as you do.


Now......... once again........ I made no argument with you; have no argument with you. If you're trying to Start an argument; at least put the effort in and do it well.
Bring your site links and information that refutes the comments I added. Don't just swing by and call me ignorant and blast off. Maybe you were short on time? Or maybe my observation regarding women's rights just hit you wrong somehow?

Comments which I added in earnest as a simple observation to most ANYONE who's lived on this planet over the course of the past 2,000 yrs and have witnessed the elevation of Men and the suppression of women and their own rights to their own bodies.
It's regulated (women's rights to their own bodies) - BY LAW - for crissakes. I need say no more.
But
Show me ONE law (just one) which regulated men's bodies - what they can or cannot do with their bodies === THEN and ONLY THEN do you have an argument with my observation.

Good luck with that!





cheers
Bowing

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30-04-2014, 12:24 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
About time we figure out how to make men carry the babies - all of this will change asap.

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30-04-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(30-04-2014 12:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  About time we figure out how to make men carry the babies - all of this will change asap.



Yes.

thank you

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30-04-2014, 01:49 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 01:54 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(29-04-2014 02:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  The Only reason the topic of abortion comes up at all - anywhere - any time - for any reason - is because we live in a society that believes women are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds as to end a pregnancy or continue with said pregnancy. Therefore there's discussion about developing brains and spines, etc......and both camps- For & Against -petition that their arguments be heard and considered........and on and on and on........

when really it's up to the woman who's going to abort or carry.


period.
I absolutely agree with all of the above. except I would extend it to
" we live in a society that believes people in general are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds"


(29-04-2014 02:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  If it were men who got pregnant and gave birth - it would never have even came up as a topic.........
ever.
I absolutely disagree with this.

I am a man, I don't feel that it is my place to tell a woman how to behave if her behaviours do not impact me.

The problem is people's moral beliefs and their insistence to force them onto others. They are interfering with the pregnant woman because they feel her having an abortion is a moral issue and they feel that gives them the obligation to interfere.
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03-05-2014, 09:09 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
As an introduction, I define a libertarian as one who opposes religious and secular authoritarianism, not one or the other. To keep things simple, I define an atheist as a hostile skeptic (my paternal grandmother, Christopher Hitchens, Steve Allen as examples). I am of the non-hostile variety, currently singing in my sister-in-laws Catholic Church. Two atheists in my family, who insist that they are not hostile to Christianity or any other religion, resent my definition. I encourage them, like me, to describe themselves simply as skeptics.

Here are a few personal thoughts about abortion. I was born prior to Roe v Wade.

(1) In 1973, seven lawyers decided that those humans between one and 170 days (or around there) were eligible for a medical procedure stopping their biological development. Those between 171 and 270 days were not eligible. Personally, I would have stepped down from the court and encouraged my colleagues to send this back to the states. How was I supposed to tell the mother two months from giving birth that her child was not eligible?

(2) Those who advocate abortion, especially for the entire 270 days, are model libertarians or anti-authoritarians. After the umbilical cord is cut, however, the birthing room fills up with lawyers, child welfare workers, Internal Revenue agents, social workers, union teachers, Department of Education administrators and bureaucrats, truant officers, labor leaders, politicians, law enforcement officers, psychologists, pediatricians, and nutritionists, all representing government in some capacity. They present the new mother with a list of 100 federal, state and local laws, regulations and ordinances. They inform the mother that if she fails to follow these rules, government can come to her apartment, house, farm or ranch and remove the child. The State’s power to do so will last for 16 years.

It is this libertarian to anti-libertarian transformation which I find so mysterious and interesting. It is much like transubstantiation of the bread and wine at Mass. The priest states this is a mystery of faith, kind of like a mystery of statism.
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03-05-2014, 10:03 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2014 10:09 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Firstly... welcome aboard.

I hope you stay. That was an enjoyably articulate and thought-provokng first post.

(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  As an introduction, I define a libertarian as one who opposes religious and secular authoritarianism, not one or the other.

I have never tried to define that word (and certainly never as a self-introduction)... we don't have any of that freedom nonsense in this part of the world.

(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  To keep things simple, I define an atheist as a hostile skeptic
...

Most here would keep things even more simple and define an atheist as one without a belief in god(s).

But there are a few current raging discussions on how hostile it really is / ought to be.

Jump into those when you're ready.

(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  ...
I am of the non-hostile variety
...

So if atheist = hostile skeptic, and you are not hostile, that means that you are not an atheist, right?

Consider

(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  ... my paternal grandmother, Christopher Hitchens,
...

I thought he was a guy but if that is true, that would make you royalty around here Big Grin

(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  ...
It is this libertarian to anti-libertarian transformation which I find so mysterious and interesting. It is much like transubstantiation of the bread and wine at Mass. The priest states this is a mystery of faith, kind of like a mystery of statism.

Yeah, well... Murikans are just weird...
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03-05-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(03-05-2014 09:09 AM)Walter Wrote:  It is this libertarian to anti-libertarian transformation which I find so mysterious and interesting. It is much like transubstantiation of the bread and wine at Mass. The priest states this is a mystery of faith, kind of like a mystery of statism.

False dichotomy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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