Question for anti-abortion atheists
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03-05-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(30-04-2014 12:27 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 12:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  About time we figure out how to make men carry the babies - all of this will change asap.



Yes.

thank you

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I'd like it if we becamse a race of hermaphrodites.
No more sexism, and whatnot.
Or mabye asexual reproduction sounds better.

Insulting me will convert me real fast!
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Me:
Can we define him as he defines himself? Or will he define himself as we define how he defines himself? But, if we do that, will we define him as he defines himself based on our definition of how we see him define himself?
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04-05-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Walter sounds a lot like a train wreck, just sayin'.
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05-05-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(29-04-2014 02:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  The Only reason the topic of abortion comes up at all - anywhere - any time - for any reason - is because we live in a society that believes women are too inept/incapable/illogical to make up their own minds as to end a pregnancy or continue with said pregnancy. Therefore there's discussion about developing brains and spines, etc......and both camps- For & Against -petition that their arguments be heard and considered........and on and on and on........

when really it's up to the woman who's going to abort or carry.


period.

If it were men who got pregnant and gave birth - it would never have even came up as a topic.........
ever.


Weeping

There is undoubtedly a lot of truth to that.

I am a soft pro choice person. I won't tell other people what to do because I don't really know myself. At the stage I am at in my life right now though, I would feel very guilty of my fiance aborted a baby. Just me though. I guess its because I know if I do nothing a baby will show up.
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05-05-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Too many pages to read through, so forgive me if I'm repeating something already covered. I do have one possible explanation.

I don't think we have "a" moral principle. I think we have lots of them and we balance them against each other. I'm not a utilitarian, generally speaking. If we can enslave a small minority population, force them to become doctors, and use them to provide free healthcare to all, thereby increasing average happiness and net happiness in the world... I'm not okay with that. But park an alien spaceship overhead, have the aliens blow Mars to smithereens, and then declare the entire planet and human race is next if we don't sacrifice an innocent child... well, find me a kid and I'll kill her myself. Crazy I know. I'm not usually a utilitarian... unless things get really, really really bad!

So I figure we have multiple moral principles, and a weighting we give to those principles when trading them off against each other. Perhaps my utilitarian scale is logarithmic. For most of the curve I don't give utilitarianism much weight, but way out on the fringe edges it emerges to become very important very quick.

In that sense, I think we also have another weighting we give to the need for certainty in any moral situation. Should we kill serial killers or just imprison them? Ehh.... I'm not really all that passionate one way or the other as far as actual serial killers go, but if you kill serial killers I have very little tolerance for errors! Better to keep them all imprisoned for life than to kill wrongly convicted mistakes.

Perhaps anti-abortion atheists feel this way about abortion. If we are right and fetuses can't think, don't know, don't feel pain, etc, then they aren't that passionate about it as a moral issue. But if they are wrong, and they do feel pain or have a soul or whatever, then a major and uncorrectable wrong has been committed, so they err on the side of not doing it.
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05-05-2014, 09:14 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Was arguing with a theist friend about it, and what he accused me of was valid.
he said:

"all your arguments only take the psychological and physical welfare of the woman into account, not once have you mentioned the welfare of the child ".

And he is correct, I just can't agree that the foetus is a life form deserving of rights. does that make me a bad person.
I somewhat arbitrary assigned welfare status at 3-4 months as the cut off point because of my own judgement of the tipping point of it being "a real boy".

So I'm not really pro choice because I would be upset if abortions are done past 4 months .

I'm pro choice with conditions:
Mandatory (if possible) Psychological counselling before and after.
No post 4 months abortions without 2 x medical professionals agreement
Sixteen years and older have authority on who is notified about the pregnancy/abortion.
Religion and the father of the child have no rights over the woman or the unborn lifeform.


is this in line with most peoples opinions ?

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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06-05-2014, 06:12 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
Me and my oldest daughter had a discussion on this last night and came to the conclusion we are both pro-life but not anti-abortion. We both feel life should be given a chance, but the procedure should not be made illegal or excessively restricted becasue of all the potential negative aspects that could possibly bring up. Also, we both felt both sides could make better use of all their PR efforts working on reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies instead of fighting each other.
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06-05-2014, 06:41 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(05-05-2014 09:14 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Was arguing with a theist friend about it, and what he accused me of was valid.
he said:

"all your arguments only take the psychological and physical welfare of the woman into account, not once have you mentioned the welfare of the child ".

And he is correct, I just can't agree that the foetus is a life form deserving of rights. does that make me a bad person.
I somewhat arbitrary assigned welfare status at 3-4 months as the cut off point because of my own judgement of the tipping point of it being "a real boy".

So I'm not really pro choice because I would be upset if abortions are done past 4 months .

I'm pro choice with conditions:
Mandatory (if possible) Psychological counselling before and after.
No post 4 months abortions without 2 x medical professionals agreement
Sixteen years and older have authority on who is notified about the pregnancy/abortion.
Religion and the father of the child have no rights over the woman or the unborn lifeform.


is this in line with most peoples opinions ?

I can't speak for most people's opinions, but I don't agree that there is a cutoff. It's not about morals, or physical/psychological welfare.

For me, it's about bodily autonomy. The decision to terminate should be left strictly to the woman. Two doctors need a consensus? What the fuck? Should you be required to get two doctors to sign off on your heart surgery?

This idea you have that women who terminate late are doing this on a whim. 90% of these women wanted their babies, but something went very wrong.

And her decision, which is is often a horrible one to make, does not need to be exacerbated by requiring more than one doctor (because women simply cannot be trusted to make decisions affecting their bodies and lives on their own) is ridiculous.

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06-05-2014, 06:51 AM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(05-05-2014 09:14 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Was arguing with a theist friend about it, and what he accused me of was valid.
he said:

"all your arguments only take the psychological and physical welfare of the woman into account, not once have you mentioned the welfare of the child ".

And he is correct, I just can't agree that the foetus is a life form deserving of rights. does that make me a bad person.
I somewhat arbitrary assigned welfare status at 3-4 months as the cut off point because of my own judgement of the tipping point of it being "a real boy".

So I'm not really pro choice because I would be upset if abortions are done past 4 months .

I'm pro choice with conditions:
Mandatory (if possible) Psychological counselling before and after.
No post 4 months abortions without 2 x medical professionals agreement
Sixteen years and older have authority on who is notified about the pregnancy/abortion.
Religion and the father of the child have no rights over the woman or the unborn lifeform.


is this in line with most peoples opinions ?

I think it depends on why they are having the procedure. My opinion is that past viability should be restriced to medical cases only. Like Cathly eluded to, most late term abortions are not elective, but medical anyway. There should be no extra requirements over other medical procedures.
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06-05-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(05-05-2014 09:14 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Was arguing with a theist friend about it, and what he accused me of was valid.
he said:

"all your arguments only take the psychological and physical welfare of the woman into account, not once have you mentioned the welfare of the child ".

And he is correct, I just can't agree that the foetus is a life form deserving of rights. does that make me a bad person.
I somewhat arbitrary assigned welfare status at 3-4 months as the cut off point because of my own judgement of the tipping point of it being "a real boy".

So I'm not really pro choice because I would be upset if abortions are done past 4 months .

I'm pro choice with conditions:
Mandatory (if possible) Psychological counselling before and after.
No post 4 months abortions without 2 x medical professionals agreement
Sixteen years and older have authority on who is notified about the pregnancy/abortion.
Religion and the father of the child have no rights over the woman or the unborn lifeform.


is this in line with most peoples opinions ?

It works...
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22-05-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Question for anti-abortion atheists
(04-05-2014 08:54 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Walter sounds a lot like a train wreck, just sayin'.

Can you think of anything more libertarian (or anti-authoritarian) than abortion for the entire period of gestation? How would you have voted if sitting on that court in 1973? Why would a judge see 1-170 days in the Constitution and not 1-270 days?

I was simply making an observation of what transpires for the mother before birth (hands off) and after birth (hands on). Before birth, there is one other person involved (the OB/GYN or midwife). After birth, there are many people, including a Priest for the Catholic mothers.

Why does the State, after birth, now tell the mother what to do with her child? Is it for the common good?
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