Question for atheists...
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19-03-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 09:03 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I perceive gravity directly. Gravity is the attractive force between matter. I don't need to prove that which is perceptually self evident. No you can't prove that God exists because that would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. It would be using logic to undermine logic. This is because logic rests exclusively on the primacy of existence principle and the notion of God assumes the primacy of consciousness. Gravity does not contradict any known facts.

Edit: This was in response to agnostic Shane's question to me. For some reason it didn't quote.
I'm an Agnostic. It doesn't matter to me if God does or doesn't exist at this point in my life. I believe the best way to understand someone's logic is to ask them questions rather than asserting your own beliefs. I always maintain the fact that I could be wrong.

How exactly did you perceive gravity directly?
Are you stating that personal experience of something is the only way to determine it's existence?
Do you believe the Pryramids exist?

I can feel it's pull. I perceive it every time I walk, lift a bag of groceries, jump to reach a high shelf or crash on my mountain bike.

No I'm not saying that perception is the only way to determine that something exists. I've already said that we are not limited to the perceptual level of consciousness. We also have reason. And yes I do believe the pyramids exist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-03-2016, 09:42 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 09:28 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 09:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I'm an Agnostic. It doesn't matter to me if God does or doesn't exist at this point in my life. I believe the best way to understand someone's logic is to ask them questions rather than asserting your own beliefs. I always maintain the fact that I could be wrong.

How exactly did you perceive gravity directly?
Are you stating that personal experience of something is the only way to determine it's existence?
Do you believe the Pryramids exist?

I can feel it's pull. I perceive it every time I walk, lift a bag of groceries, jump to reach a high shelf or crash on my mountain bike.

No I'm not saying that perception is the only way to determine that something exists. I've already said that we are not limited to the perceptual level of consciousness. We also have reason. And yes I do believe the pyramids exist.
I am not trying to make any assertions here. Only trying to understand your logic.
I am assuming based on your last response that you also believe in things, in some cases, without actual sensual perception, such as the pyramids. Am I correct?
How are you able to prove that the Pyramids exist?
Is it safe to use this same logic if I try to prove that god exists?
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19-03-2016, 09:44 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 05:17 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 04:59 PM)Banjo Wrote:  In regards to the question at hand, no. Just you. You allow your bias to interfere with your search for scientific fact.

What scientific fact?

(19-03-2016 04:59 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You are currently using the internet. The internet was created using science. This is how powerful science is.

Would the internet exist if the universe didn't begin to exist? No.

(19-03-2016 04:59 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Science creates medicines, vaccines, space travel, the discovery of DNA etc.

Science created the "discovery of DNA"? Laugh out load What a pity Laugh out load

Non answer avoidance = FAIL.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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19-03-2016, 10:09 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 08:36 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 08:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Seriously huh?

I can go see the pyramids in Egypt. I can buy a plane ticket and book a trip.

Let me know when you return from your trip to heaven.

When I order pizza, I'm aware of where I'm calling -- they even answer the phone identifying themselves. I'm not going to call a library to order a pizza.

I'll ask you the same question I asked call of the cartilage -- what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?
Are you saying that because you believe you can go see the Pyramids in Egypt it increases the possibility that they exist?
How do you know you can go see the pyramids in Egypt?
Is this not another form of believing in something unproven by yourself to justify believing in something unproven by yourself?
I don't see how believing in the existence of the pyramids can be done by use of Empircal evidence if you never actually go see the pyramids.

I don't think belief has anything to do with cognitive rationalization.
I think it may be just a primal instinct based on a reduced probability of deception.
I could be wrong but I rather discuss it than draw a conclusion.

The answer to your question of:
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
1. Proving what does not exist cannot be done even if you were omniscient, because you can't prove that you are omniscient. It's a paradox.
2. Being UNABLE to prove something exist requires omniscience.

You may choose to not believe the pyramids of Giza exist.

You may choose to believe the moon is made of cheese too. Or that it's a hologram.

Do you believe the earth is round? Is there in your mind, sufficient evidence that is?


I don't require omniscience to prove the moon is a real thing, not a hologram and not made of cheese.

I don't need to be omniscient to know our planet is round.

You shouldn't require omniscience to deduce by evidence that there is no Santa's workshop at the North Pole. There are no elves that work tirelessly to make toys for all the children around the world which Santa packs into his sleigh on Christmas Eve and delivers them all.

Zero evidence Santa exists. I don't need to be omniscient to figure it out.

The fact you think you should is an embarrassment.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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19-03-2016, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 10:30 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 08:36 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you saying that because you believe you can go see the Pyramids in Egypt it increases the possibility that they exist?
How do you know you can go see the pyramids in Egypt?
Is this not another form of believing in something unproven by yourself to justify believing in something unproven by yourself?
I don't see how believing in the existence of the pyramids can be done by use of Empircal evidence if you never actually go see the pyramids.

I don't think belief has anything to do with cognitive rationalization.
I think it may be just a primal instinct based on a reduced probability of deception.
I could be wrong but I rather discuss it than draw a conclusion.

The answer to your question of:
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
1. Proving what does not exist cannot be done even if you were omniscient, because you can't prove that you are omniscient. It's a paradox.
2. Being UNABLE to prove something exist requires omniscience.

You may choose to not believe the pyramids of Giza exist.

You may choose to believe the moon is made of cheese too. Or that it's a hologram.

Do you believe the earth is round? Is there in your mind, sufficient evidence that is?


I don't require omniscience to prove the moon is a real thing, not a hologram and not made of cheese.

I don't need to be omniscient to know our planet is round.

You don't require omniscience to deduce by evidence that there is no Santa's workshop at the North Pole. There are no elves that work tirelessly to make toys for all the children around the world which Santa packs into his sleigh on Christmas Eve and delivers them all.

Zero evidence Santa exists. I don't need to be omniscient to figure it out.

The fact you think you should is an embarrassment.
Did I misunderstand your question?
Was this not your question?
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
Did you ask me a question about proving something or not being able to prove something?
How do you arrive at the assumption that something cannot be proven to exist in anyway? How do you know it cannot be proven? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
How did you arrive at the assumption something does not exist at all? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
Would you like me to answer the question based on an assumed omniscient position?

These are not accusations or assertions, I am only trying to understand your logic.
There is no need to speak about embarrassment. These are simple questions.

Concerning the pyramids:
Is choosing to believe the Pyramids exist how you prove that they exist?
If not then how did you come to believe the pyramids exist?
Is the belief in the pyramids existence not dependent an proof?
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19-03-2016, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 10:45 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 10:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  You may choose to not believe the pyramids of Giza exist.

You may choose to believe the moon is made of cheese too. Or that it's a hologram.

Do you believe the earth is round? Is there in your mind, sufficient evidence that is?


I don't require omniscience to prove the moon is a real thing, not a hologram and not made of cheese.

I don't need to be omniscient to know our planet is round.

You don't require omniscience to deduce by evidence that there is no Santa's workshop at the North Pole. There are no elves that work tirelessly to make toys for all the children around the world which Santa packs into his sleigh on Christmas Eve and delivers them all.

Zero evidence Santa exists. I don't need to be omniscient to figure it out.

The fact you think you should is an embarrassment.
Did I misunderstand your question?
Was this not your question?
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
Did you ask me a question about proving something or not being able to prove something?
How do you arrive at the assumption that something cannot be proven to exist in anyway? How do you know it cannot be proven? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
How did you arrive at the assumption something does not exist at all? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
Would you like me to answer the question based on an assumed omniscient position?

These are not accusations or assertions, I am only trying to understand your logic.
There is no need to speak about embarrassment. These are simple questions.

Concerning the pyramids:
Is choosing to believe the Pyramids exist how you prove that they exist?


Sweet holy fuck...

Things that don't exist simply do not exist. Fucking ground breaking concept, I know.


Concepts that lack sufficient evidence to substantiate their existence should be treated as non-existent. In fact, you already do this all of the time. I doubt you spend your days worrying about the army of Demonic Vampire Witches of Saturn™ and their plans for world domination, because until their existences is demonstrable with evidence, they effectively do not exist; even if you want to wax rhapsodic about how we cannot possibly be sure they cannot exist short of omniscience. We can be reasonably sure they don't exist, because there is no evidence to support their existence; and we all go about our lives not giving a single fuck about the plans of the Demonic Vampire Witches of Saturn™. Anybody that did worry about their plans would rightly be at the receiving end of a torrent of uncontrollable laughter.


So stop this one man mental masturbation session already. It is embarrassing.

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19-03-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 10:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 10:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  You may choose to not believe the pyramids of Giza exist.

You may choose to believe the moon is made of cheese too. Or that it's a hologram.

Do you believe the earth is round? Is there in your mind, sufficient evidence that is?


I don't require omniscience to prove the moon is a real thing, not a hologram and not made of cheese.

I don't need to be omniscient to know our planet is round.

You don't require omniscience to deduce by evidence that there is no Santa's workshop at the North Pole. There are no elves that work tirelessly to make toys for all the children around the world which Santa packs into his sleigh on Christmas Eve and delivers them all.

Zero evidence Santa exists. I don't need to be omniscient to figure it out.

The fact you think you should is an embarrassment.
Did I misunderstand your question?
Was this not your question?
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
Did you ask me a question about proving something or not being able to prove something?
How do you arrive at the assumption that something cannot be proven to exist in anyway? How do you know it cannot be proven? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
How did you arrive at the assumption something does not exist at all? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
Would you like me to answer the question based on an assumed omniscient position?

These are not accusations or assertions, I am only trying to understand your logic.
There is no need to speak about embarrassment. These are simple questions.

Concerning the pyramids:
Is choosing to believe the Pyramids exist how you prove that they exist?
If not then how did you come to believe the pyramids exist?
Is the belief in the pyramids existence not dependent an proof?

So it is your belief that omniscience is required to know that Santa Claus doesn't live in the North Pole and his elves make toys in his workshop?

Because you question if there is enough evidence that he doesn't, thereby he might?

So I might infer from your questions that you are unsure and Santa might actually exist then?

So, you're going to keep writing your annual letter to him?

I'm just asking questions trying to understand your logic.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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19-03-2016, 10:39 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
COTW you *asked* us for comment. Now you can't resist *telling* us what we *should* believe, according to you. You're unchanged from before. Totally uninterested in other people's knowledge or points of view, only interested in pushing your own.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-03-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(19-03-2016 10:35 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 10:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did I misunderstand your question?
Was this not your question?
"what is the difference between something you cannot in anyway prove exists...And something that doesn't exist at all?"
Did you ask me a question about proving something or not being able to prove something?
How do you arrive at the assumption that something cannot be proven to exist in anyway? How do you know it cannot be proven? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
How did you arrive at the assumption something does not exist at all? Are you claiming knowledge of all past, present & future events?
Would you like me to answer the question based on an assumed omniscient position?

These are not accusations or assertions, I am only trying to understand your logic.
There is no need to speak about embarrassment. These are simple questions.

Concerning the pyramids:
Is choosing to believe the Pyramids exist how you prove that they exist?


Sweet holy fuck...

Things that don't exist simply do not exist. Fucking ground breaking concept, I know.


Concepts that lack sufficient evidence to substantiate their existence should be treated as non-existent. In fact, you already do this all of the time. I doubt you spend your days worrying about the army of Demon Vampire Witches of Saturn™ and their plans for world domination, because until their existences is demonstrable with evidence, they effectively do not exist: even if you want to wax rhapsodic about how we cannot possibly be sure they cannot exist short of omniscience. We can be reasonably sure they don't exist, because there is no evidence to support their existence; and we all go about our lives not giving a single fuck about the plans for the Demonic Vampire Witches of Saturn™; and anybody that did worry about their plans would rightly be at the receiving end of a torrent of uncontrollable laughter.


So stop this one man mental masturbation session already. It is embarrassing.
These are only questions my friend.
I am making no assertions.
Am I supposed to believe something does not exist simply because you said so?
I am not saying that things do not exist. I am simply asking how do you know something does not exist?
Do you know if my black German Sheperd dog exists? How can I prove that it doesn't exist?

How does one go about proving that something does not exist. Is this a hard question?

Does my lack of belief in something prove that it doesn't exist?
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19-03-2016, 10:52 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
At work.

Ag-Shane.

I think you are asking a sort of question which was answered along the lines of one of the former... um... American Vice Presidents?

Along the lines of,

"Things we know. Things we don't know. Things we know we don't know and things we don't know we know."

Now, while said person was ridiculed and lampooned for such an answer. .... (Not that I may have quoted it correctly) it's quite a good and profound sort of answer.

That you are happy to be vague is your problem.

Untill you wish to become concise then all you'll tend to get is obscure replies.
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