Question for atheists...
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27-03-2016, 11:39 AM
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:25 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 02:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  He doesnt.....at all. Otherwise he wold have presented it in the past 100 pages of this treat

He tried several times, got proven worng, tried again, ignoring everything said.
Dishonest, insane or stupid, you decide. Experience tells us its mostly a mix of reasons.

See above, in any circle of serious scientists one gets laughed out of the room for statements like this. He has proven countless times, that he even doesnt know how science works.
Example: He is constantly asking atheists to disprove his imaginary god. Thats not how science works.
So, arguing science in denial of evolution, while having to clue about what science is, shows how far up the Dunning-Kruger scale this individual is. Its like a 9th magnitude earthquake, earhtshattering stupid.

What has been told and explained to him, and endlessly so, would amount to an education from middle school up to some lectures in university. The fields of paleontology, biology, chemistry, cosmology, physics, history, particle physics, and even philosophy (a *soft* science) have been touched and elaborated.
Too bad that he choses to ignore this unique chance to get educated on so many different interesting topics. That is because he doesnt want to be educated. He chooses to be ignorant. All he wants to do is to follow the alleged commandments of the god of his horrible disgusting fantasy. A truly pathetic existence.

It has been explained to him dozens of times, that with the breakdown of space-time in the very first fractions of a second after the big bang (looking back in time), our picture of what *reality* is starts to fail. Time does not exist, space ceases to exist. Causation ceases to exist.

You will see that he will ignore all those facts again, conveniently, and will repeat the same empty, easily refutable arguments, because he has to keep his fantasy alive, because of cognitive dissonace.
Please note how he has to twist reality constantly to match is belief. His conclusion is where he starts arguing from, thats his modus operandi.

The picture of this is complete once we consider that he was laughing at the -suppposed to be- eternal damnation he thinks one (if not all) of his opponents will have to suffer for just not believing as he does. That is how far he has screwed up his moral compass.
He has warped up his mind so much, that the most disgusting of all behaviours seems to be the most desirable things for him to do/think.
Now add to this his delusional claim of "i am doing the work of god", and you know why people are flying planes into scyscrapers, mutilate others genitals, commit genocide, commit pogroms. Its because they dont respect other persons basic human rights like the right to exist just because others dont believe what they belive. If you arent a member of their delusional club, you have not even the right to exist, only the right for eternal damnation. And the icing on the cake is, that they claim its all your fault.
There is noting more worthy of our contempt than existences like this/his

Is this guy talking at me, or to me? Laugh out load

About you, you idiot, which is plainly obvious.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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27-03-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
This has to be seen:




Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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27-03-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:09 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-03-2016 09:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Time is not things, you ignorant twat.

You do not understand the point. Being a paradox does not mean it is not possible, it means it is non-intuitive.

You do not understand the mathematics.

Keep trying, catman, keep trying. I just may allow you to win a debate against me.

Your humility is astounding, Jebus-boy.
"Pride goeth before the fall".

Have you ever considered a *spiritual adviser * ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-03-2016, 01:54 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 03:15 PM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 10:09 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Keep trying, catman, keep trying. I just may allow you to win a debate against me.

Your humility is astounding, Jebus-boy.
"Pride goeth before the fall".

Have you ever considered a *spiritual adviser * ?

cow shit has a wife, a 'boyfriend' in agnostic insane and now you want him to consider a spiritual adviser as well? You are gonna kill him.

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27-03-2016, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 04:24 PM by Leo.)
RE: Question for atheists...
So when call of the wild will go away ? Isn't 13 months of pure trolling enough ?

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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27-03-2016, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 04:33 PM by Astreja.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:22 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The universe began to exist, Astreja. Something that began to exist could not have endured through an infinite amount of time.

Ah, but the stuff it is made of could be eternal. This is a question that science cannot currently answer, as we don't have sufficient data regarding what preceded the Big Bang.

Quote:Yet, you still haven't explained WHY my explanation is logically and empirically inadequate. Just bypassed right over it, huh Laugh out load

Your "explanation" is essentially just you whining and pissing around with copious arguments from incredulity, trying to present your petty little imaginary friend as The Only Possible Explanation. The moment you say something such as "It couldn't possibly be that way," the onus is on you to produce actual data to show why. In that regard you have been rather unsuccessful to date, with no actual physical data to back up your claims.

Quote:The difficult part is you explaining WHY you reject {the First Cause argument}. If you can do that, not only will I be shocked, but I will be impressed Yes

Two reasons:
  1. It is not currently possible to determine the nature of whatever preceded the current universe, or to know if it is temporal or eternal at its foundation. As such, it is premature to assume that a First Cause is actually required.
  2. A First Cause that presupposes a sentient being, rather than mindless natural forces, is just a thinly-veiled attempt to define an unproven god into existence.

Quote:Because existence, on its basic, fundamental level, is necessary.

Why? Does not compute.

Quote:Right, so the conditions that was needed to allow this universe to begin existed an infinite time ago...but it only began to exist a finite time ago? Makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you allow for the possibility of constant change, with universes arising and disintegrating on an ongoing basis. If it makes no sense to you, maybe you need to give your imagination more exercise.

Quote:You are quite content taking a logically absurd position? Well, I will leave you to your absurdities...

Oh, I have a long way to go before I out-absurd Christianity. That stuff is seriously borked.
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27-03-2016, 10:15 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 11:39 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  About you, you idiot, which is plainly obvious.

Whiskey...I want you to do something for me. There are only two steps, and I want you to complete each one.

Remember, only two..

1. Hold your breath
2. Now, while holding your breath, in your mind, count to infinity.

Do that for me. I know you won't, but there is always that slim possibility that you may do it.

If you can do that, man, that will be great. Otherwise, I won't pay your foul-mouthed blithering ass any mind from now on.
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27-03-2016, 10:19 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 10:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:15 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 11:39 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  About you, you idiot, which is plainly obvious.

Whiskey...I want you to do something for me. There are only two steps, and I want you to complete each one.

Remember, only two..

1. Hold your breath
2. Now, while holding your breath, in your mind, count to infinity.

Do that for me. I know you won't, but there is always that slim possibility that you may do it.

If you can do that, man, that will be great. Otherwise, I won't pay your foul-mouthed blithering ass any mind from now on.

Oh ... if only I could get that Jebus stuff to stick to me.
Then I could be all loving and charitable too, just like Wail of the Child.
Religion, Easter, and his Jebus do him *so* much good that he actually advocates suicide on Easter Sunday. And he claims to be "saved". Laugh out load
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-03-2016, 10:35 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Ah, but the stuff it is made of could be eternal.

If it was eternal, it wouldn't have come to past only 13.7 billion years ago.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  This is a question that science cannot currently answer, as we don't have sufficient data regarding what preceded the Big Bang.

Well, the logical problem with infinite regression holds true regardless of any past, present, or future data regarding the universe.

Logical problems are independent of science/physics. So no new information is going to get you an eternity past.

It is just one of those things, Astreja.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Your "explanation" is essentially just you whining and pissing around with copious arguments from incredulity, trying to present your petty little imaginary friend as The Only Possible Explanation.

Again, it cant be an argument from incredulity if I said "Here is why x cant be true". Now, if there was something that you didn't understand regarding what I said, then say that.

Otherwise, my argument against an infinite universe still stands....and for you to just bypass it without making any attempt whatsoever to address it, and then act as if I didn't speak on the matter...that is just disingenuous to say the least.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  The moment you say something such as "It couldn't possibly be that way," the onus is on you to produce actual data to show why.

Been there, done that. And I would do it again, but I won't, until you address what I initially said about it.

I am saying IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR TIME to be INFINITE, and an ABSOLUTE FIRST CAUSE is NECESSARY.

I say it, and I say it with absolute confidence that you, a scientist, or ANYONE can say/do anything to refute it.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  In that regard you have been rather unsuccessful to date, with no actual physical data to back up your claims.

I don't need "physical" data.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  It is not currently possible to determine the nature of whatever preceded the current universe, or to know if it is temporal or eternal at its foundation.

It is currently possible.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  As such, it is premature to assume that a First Cause is actually required.

Then it is also premature to assume that a First Cause ISN'T actually required.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  A First Cause that presupposes a sentient being, rather than mindless natural forces, is just a thinly-veiled attempt to define an unproven god into existence.

It is what it is. We go where the evidence takes us.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Why? Does not compute.

Because if absolutely nothing existed, then nothing would currently exist.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  It makes perfect sense if you allow for the possibility of constant change, with universes arising and disintegrating on an ongoing basis.

Change requires time, and a past-eternal causal chain is absurd. It cannot exist/happen in reality.

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  If it makes no sense to you, maybe you need to give your imagination more exercise.

As imaginative as yours?

(27-03-2016 04:26 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Oh, I have a long way to go before I out-absurd Christianity. That stuff is seriously borked.

Provide specifics Big Grin
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27-03-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:21 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 10:41 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
To be "blameless" does not mean "morally perfect"...if that were the case, then Jesus wouldn't have died for the sins of the WORLD as scriptures clearly indicate...and you wouldn't have have Paul saying "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
How exactly did Jesus die for the sins of the world? Explain how and when did that happen please.
I'm not disagreeing with you here. I just seek your logic.

Apart from the examples of blameless people I listed from reading the bible verses I have a lot of examples of perfect beings other than Jesus in the bible as well.
Here is the list:
Job 1:1] There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


Genesis 17:1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2nd Kings 20:3] I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.


This proves before Christ man where walking in perfection doing the will of the Lord. Jesus never said, "I am the only perfect person!" Or "I am and nobody else is perfect!" This is a hollywood gospel from TV, radio, church preachers from the pit of hell. If Jesus was the only perfect man then the bible would be wrong and Jesus told a lie!

Matthew 5:48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Paul and Peter preached about perfection

2nd Cor. 13:9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Romans 12:2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phillippians 3:15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

James 1:4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

1st Peter 5:10] But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Amen, when is God going to make you perfect? When you start reading and doing what the bible says, it is all conditional from Adam and Eve to the last word in Revelation.

John 14:23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You spoke about Jesus being the only sinless man in the bible.
I found examples of blameless and perfect men in the bible, so I assumed sinless does not mean the same as blameless and perfect.
I just want to know what you mean by sinless if it doesn't carry the same meaning as blameless and perfect.
I'm kind of liking the Jesus concept but this part was a bit confusing for me.

Now I tried to rationalize it a bit and I came up with the theory that we can still be blameless and perfect as a man but still sinful in the eyes of God. Possibly due to something our fathers and mothers did, maybe Adam & Eve.
The problem with that rationalization is that it's not up to us to fix our sins since no matter how perfect or blameless we are we can still be sinful in the eyes of God.
I assumed for God to forgive us we have to repent. Therefore absent any form of repentance we cannot be saved from our inherited sin.
Is repentance not a pre-requisite of being perfect or blameless? If not then why should any Christian try to be blames and perfect in the first place? I assume if God still wants us to be blameless and perfect even though he doesn't threaten us with eternal damnation it is just something that can make him happy, but the absence of which cannot make him angry.
Now I have another dilemma. You see Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden and eventually died since they were told the wages of sin is death. Adam & Eve had asked for forgiveness but they were still not given heaven by God. This means that God still reserves the power to not forgive you even when you repent. It is not a fail safe way to enter into heaven.
If this were true then it is quite possible being blameless, perfect & repentful gives you a ticket to a better reward in heaven than someone who is not blameless & perfect but still repentful. However God still has the right to refuse admission.
Now i like the idea of increasing the chances of me getting into heaven and also getting a better spot in heaven, but that's dependent on what heaven is as I may not actually like heaven when I get there. That's another topic I hope to discuss with you.
That being said I find Christianity (were it true) a good opportunity to increase my standard of living after I die, assuming that we live on after death.
Another point to note is if the wages of sin are death and not eternal damnation then that would still be a better option for me since I prefer not to live than to suffer for eternity. I will need some clarification on this since at the end of our discussion if I do not become a Christian and Christianity proves to be true I would still hope to achieve the lesser of the two punishments & to know how to ensure I get the lesser punishment if I messed up the repentance thing.

My next question is thus:
Where does Jesus fit into all of this?

As I rationalized earlier, according to Christian based logic, there is no sure guarantee something I do will always give me heaven since God still reserves the right of admission even when you try do everything he asks.
Therefore the problem with sin is that only God knows how to fix it & only he has the power to do so.

Now there exists another more important issue than all the rationalization I just attempted to do.
The possibility that there exists a more complicated set of reasons why I should believe in Christianity which I quite possible never be able to rationalize since I am not on par with God as far as wholistic logic is concerned.
That being said however if there is no way to achieve God's wholistic logic then why should I even believe anything a Christian tells me since they themselves would not be able to rationalize the logic to know if it's truly logical.
For all I know God really intended to tell us to be Atheists but due to our inability to understand his logic we misinterpreted it to mean we should be Christians.
How does a Christian know when and where to draw the line on logic if the argument is true that we can never fully understand God's logic.
Is it only when you become a Cristian you can finally understand God's logic? This would require me to dishonestly assume that Christianity is true first before I can know if it really is true.
I suppose this is where Jesus fits into all of this since we don't have to accept that Chrisitanity is true to achieve God's logic. This would place Jesus at the center of the discussion as to why I should first accept Jesus' sacrifice to achieve God's logic for the purpose of me understanding why becoming a Christian is good for my real estate choices in the after life.
The problem I am now faced with is this:
We already established that only repentance can give you a ticket into heaven, whilst blamlessness and perfection can get you a better location in heaven. So understanding God's logic was never really a pre-requisite for me to get into heaven.
It would appear that Jesus sacrifice can be the only humanly logical part of this story or without it I have no reason other than insanity to Honestly accept that Jesus truly sacrificed himself for me. Let's examine this supposed human logic that God isn't keeping from us.
So the question now becomes how does one repent for something without first becoming a Christian by accepting that Jesus sacrificed himself for us.
To do this I need further clarification on what is meant by "accept that Jesus sacrificed himself for us"
I tried to rationalize this but I hit a stumbling block when I came across the Christian story of the resurrection. You see if Jesus never fully died and is still alive in heaven more powerful than when he was on earth I cannot possibly fathom what he sacrificed. A sacrifice is supposed to be a loss so wherein did Jesus lose something? It was not his existence & the fact he is part God means he owns everything including the body he supposedly lost. If he wanted he could just slip back into it seeing that He now has full God powers. I could probably assume that because of the crucifixion he did lose some sleep, it could have been less painful and it was an overall very traumatic experience for the "Son of God" to be put though.
Therefore just by thinking that this guy went through all this pain for me I can start my journey to heavenly real estate.
Now this would all make sense if God didn't claim ownership of everything, which includes time. This is because you cannot truly lose something you alway had the power to get back, this includes painful moments in a man's life and the ability to erase traumatic experiences.
If i am to accept that Jesus somehow sacrificed something i have to come to the realization that the Christian God is not all powerful because he has the ability to lose stuff and no power to bring it back.
The Christian logic of an all powerful God with the ability to give me anything I desire has now faded from the realm of logic before I can accept Jesus sacrifice.
This now brings me full circle to the question that started my whole line of logic. Why should I become a Christian?
You see why put my trust in a less than all powerful God that he will give me something I desire when I die?
As far as Christian logic is concerned I do not truly know God's logic or if what he has in store for me when I die will be of any good to me. Suppose in God's logic his idea of heaven is what I would consider hell. I shudder to think I would go through all of this only to be given eternal punishment because I didn't really know what God was offering me if I become a Christian.
Now let's just assume for a second that I had the power to refuse God's reward/punishment after accepting Jesus sacrifice and given God's logic.
This brings me to the topic of conversion. I have heard many stories of Christians that accepted Jesus sacrifice yet opted out of Christianity at a later date.
These converts when asked why they converted could not explain God's rewards & logic from the epoch of their Christianity so I am forced to assume 3 things:
1. God's rewards are so great no one that has ever truly seen it has ever walked away
Or
2. They never honestly accepted Jesus sacrifice to attain God's logic.
Or
3. God brainwashes you after you accept Jesus sacrifice and could have your way with you from there
The problem with point 1 is that no professed Christian has the ability to tell what God's logic & reward is, even though they know what it is. Their ability to communicate properly what they understand is removed from them. It would appear God limits your communication skills the instant you become a Christian.
If this is the case then we should stop here since nowhere in this logic was it established that I want to lose my ability to communicate in return for a chance at heavenly real estate.
Point 3 just turns me into a zombie.
Ofcourse if this not an issue for other people then Christianity would be perfect for them (if it were true)
Now this brings me to the topic of you CotW.
If you possess the knowledge of God's logic and rewards but lack the ability to tell me what it is even if it is good or bad for me, how can I trust what you want to tell me about Christianity is going to be good for me?

The equation thus follows:
Say you accept Jesus sacrifice + zombie accept God's reward of heaven + zombie repentance = heavenly ticket for a zombie
Zombie Heavenly ticket + God's admission = heaven for a zombie
Zombie Heaven + Blameless zombie + Perfect zombie = higher heaven for a zombie

I'm not too impressed with Zombie Heaven logic.
There is another possibility that God threatens every truly professed Christian so that they don't speak about his true motives, logic or rewards. This would explain why so many Christians are unable to explain logically why Christianity is so great but they still have the ability to say that it is.

Now for another point I alluded to earlier:
What if I don't like the reward God has in store for me. Suppose God wants to feed me gob stoppers for eternity, I will eventually get bored of it. I know myself. Is God going to change who I am just to make me accept his rewards? This would make me someone different than I am now and I am not quite ready to stop existing for this new being to be born.

Now I have already stated that I don't really do things without some form of impending reward, so it shouldn't really bother me what God is getting from all of this so long as I am getting something.
That being said I think it is only fair to question the motives of someone you are about to make a deal with, especially if that deal could end you up a zombie.
So what's in it for God? There exists nothing I can think of that I can possibly give a being that is supposed to be all powerful & all knowing.
This isn't such a big issue though because we already established that the Christian God has limits. Maybe there is something that we can give God that he cannot possibly give himself and thus we can establish a motive for all that he has done.
Surely one can expect that God must have motive or else God would be random, thus Christianity would be random and there would be no guarantees.
So I think it's a fair assumption tht God has motives.
If God has motives & he wants something from us, although I'm not quite sure what it is yet it is fair to say the possibility exists we may have some type of bargaining power over God.
I'm liking this idea so I will follow this logic a bit further.
What could we possibly give to God that he doesn't already know, and doesn't already have?
Free will comes to mind. The ability to think freely. Free thoughts are probably the only thing of value that a human being can give to the Christian God.
Maybe he is lonely and therefore the needs us and our freedom of thought to satisfy the need.
If I follow this train of thought you may not like where it leads but I think in all fairness we should consider the possibility.
What could a Christian offer God if he changes your identity to something he can control and force to worship and praise him for eternity. He already owns you & knows what you are going to do for all of eternity so there is nothing you can give to God.
I cannot fathom what God truly wants but I can Empathize with such a being and determine what I would do if I were God in such a situation of loneliness.
I would create things that can communicate freely with me & seek the company of the ones that are less likely to do everything I expect of them.
I would need to filter the ones with more free will to be closer to me so I can enjoy their random company for as long as I can.
This filter would have to be one where my true motives are not known or the ones that wish to do everything I ask might pretend to be full of free will and I will be plagued with them until such time as I finally create a filter.
Therefore I need to stay hidden and observe them. I need to find the ones that are less likely to do exactly what I say and remove them from my company in preference of the ones that will object to me the most.
I will test them for some time without any real evidence of my existence except what I tell them to do and see which one of these free willed beings will oppose my instructions with the sheer power of free will. The ones that will object to my instructions and even go so far as to claim I don't exist. These are the ones I wish to share the company of. I must fool the masses and find the ones who can see through my deception. Such creatures would be my friends for I have no use of the ones that cannot think for themselves.
Therefore I have come to the assumption that Christianity might very well be a way for God to get rid of the rejects and find the people he has always desired to be in the Company of... The Atheists.

Have you ever once stopped to consider maybe God really does exist & he has been diliberately lying to us all along?
If God really does exist I wouldn't worship him as a God, I would pity him as a friend.
The best way to live forever in the afterlife without being turned into zombies by a weak God is to be an Atheist. Not just any Atheist will do, the most inwardly honest, unashamed, doubting Atheist is the ones that would be most desired to share the company of a weak God.

You expect me to read all of that? Laughat
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