Question for atheists...
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28-03-2016, 03:44 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 02:51 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  Rolleyes Yeah, Chas went to the trouble of creating a *whole alter ego* so that he could logic you anonymously.

He didn't go through "all of the trouble"...he already had a separate profile. This other "dude" only has a handful of posts, and one of those "handful" of posts just HAPPENS to be geared towards me on the subject of Hilbert's Hotel...the same subject that Chas wanted to get spanked on?

I ain't Columbo, but cmonnn. Laugh out load

Second, I can dismantle his argument, as I've done before in the same thread that I keep trying to get him to return to.

Third, even if his post does destroy my argument (which it doesn't), that would mean that he accomplished more in one post than you did in your many towards me. Laughat

(28-03-2016 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  You do not address the logic of the post, merely make an accusation. Are you hoping someone reading the conversation won't notice? Because you're fucken transparent.

Child, please. I didn't address the "logic" of the post because I think it is Chas...and I already told him that I won't engage him on the matter.

I would have you repost his post so that the post will be coming from you and not him, but the problem is, when I demolish it, you will be unable to answer my objections, because you obviously don't know what the hell is going on with it...you are just cheerleading his post because it "sounds good".

So please, go back to wherever you came from. My mind is really focused on the arguments for the Resurrection, and I am looking to engage someone with a discussion on that.

Like I said, I got bigger fish to fry.

Hi cow shit. You gonna continue to ignore the contents of the video forever?

Don't you like the content, huh?

Dope.

What are you gonna tell your kids about your evil cult?

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28-03-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
looking of COW and chas discussion (kindly directed to me by other my thanks ) I am to say the least unimpressed he addressed none of Dr James points nor has he refuted the refutation of the paradox nor has he shown infinity as a state of being rather then a description of not known quantities

pascal wager in a nut shell

god essentially wants a army of cowardly slaves who love it out of a selfish desire not to be punished and avoid said punishment by ideological luck
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28-03-2016, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 04:41 PM by Chas.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 11:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 09:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your misunderstanding of the infinite has been shown and you responded with a complete misunderstanding of Hilbert's mathematics.

No, I responded with a paradox which shows the absurdity of infinity,

You claimed Hilbert's Paradox shows infinity to be absurd. You are wrong; it shows infinity to be non-intuitive. You do not understand Hilbert or infinity.
Wikipedia Wrote:Hilbert's paradox is a veridical paradox: it leads to a counter-intuitive result that is provably true. The statements "there is a guest to every room" and "no more guests can be accommodated" are not equivalent when there are infinitely many rooms. An analogous situation is presented in Cantor's diagonal proof.[3]

Initially, this state of affairs might seem to be counter-intuitive. The properties of "infinite collections of things" are quite different from those of "finite collections of things". The paradox of Hilbert's Grand Hotel can be understood by using Cantor's theory of transfinite numbers. Thus, while in an ordinary (finite) hotel with more than one room, the number of odd-numbered rooms is obviously smaller than the total number of rooms. However, in Hilbert's aptly named Grand Hotel, the quantity of odd-numbered rooms is not smaller than the total "number" of rooms. In mathematical terms, the cardinality of the subset containing the odd-numbered rooms is the same as the cardinality of the set of all rooms. Indeed, infinite sets are characterized as sets that have proper subsets of the same cardinality. For countable sets (sets with the same cardinality as the natural numbers) this cardinality is \aleph_0.

Rephrased, for any countably infinite set, there exists a bijective function which maps the countably infinite set to the set of natural numbers, even if the countably infinite set contains the natural numbers. For example, the set of rational numbers—those numbers which can be written as a quotient of integers—contains the natural numbers as a subset, but is no bigger than the set of natural numbers since the rationals are countable: there is a bijection from the naturals to the rationals.
Quote:and no, I won't engage you with a conversation on it until you go back to the thread at which you were intellectual destroyed by me on this very subject.

You have 'intellectually destroyed' no one here. Your argument about infinity is incorrect.

Quote:So take your "two-sentence" specials, and go bore someone else with them. I got bigger fish to fry Yes

You have no fish to fry, little boy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-03-2016, 04:49 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 04:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 11:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  No, I responded with a paradox which shows the absurdity of infinity,

You claimed Hilbert's Paradox shows infinity to be absurd. You are wrong; it shows infinity to be non-intuitive. You do not understand Hilbert or infinity.
Wikipedia Wrote:Hilbert's paradox is a veridical paradox: it leads to a counter-intuitive result that is provably true. The statements "there is a guest to every room" and "no more guests can be accommodated" are not equivalent when there are infinitely many rooms. An analogous situation is presented in Cantor's diagonal proof.[3]

Initially, this state of affairs might seem to be counter-intuitive. The properties of "infinite collections of things" are quite different from those of "finite collections of things". The paradox of Hilbert's Grand Hotel can be understood by using Cantor's theory of transfinite numbers. Thus, while in an ordinary (finite) hotel with more than one room, the number of odd-numbered rooms is obviously smaller than the total number of rooms. However, in Hilbert's aptly named Grand Hotel, the quantity of odd-numbered rooms is not smaller than the total "number" of rooms. In mathematical terms, the cardinality of the subset containing the odd-numbered rooms is the same as the cardinality of the set of all rooms. Indeed, infinite sets are characterized as sets that have proper subsets of the same cardinality. For countable sets (sets with the same cardinality as the natural numbers) this cardinality is \aleph_0.

Rephrased, for any countably infinite set, there exists a bijective function which maps the countably infinite set to the set of natural numbers, even if the countably infinite set contains the natural numbers. For example, the set of rational numbers—those numbers which can be written as a quotient of integers—contains the natural numbers as a subset, but is no bigger than the set of natural numbers since the rationals are countable: there is a bijection from the naturals to the rationals.
Quote:and no, I won't engage you with a conversation on it until you go back to the thread at which you were intellectual destroyed by me on this very subject.

You have 'intellectually destroyed' no one here. Your argument about infinity is incorrect.

Quote:So take your "two-sentence" specials, and go bore someone else with them. I got bigger fish to fry Yes

You have no fish to fry, little boy.

Watch out mister Chas Cow on to our evil plot of you being me or me being you or something because we both pointed out his bullshit

Sharp as a tack that ladLaugh out load

pascal wager in a nut shell

god essentially wants a army of cowardly slaves who love it out of a selfish desire not to be punished and avoid said punishment by ideological luck
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28-03-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
So is COW still curious if and why some atheists think of someone believing and talking about god is sounding like someone talking about santa, the easter bunny, and fairies?

If that was the case I would think even thinking about how some christians happen to think of other religions and such animalistic & polytheistic ones especially.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-03-2016, 05:09 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
furthermore
Quote:No, I responded with a paradox which shows the absurdity of infinity,

and the link to iron chariots" I" showed mathematically how the paradox is resolved

pascal wager in a nut shell

god essentially wants a army of cowardly slaves who love it out of a selfish desire not to be punished and avoid said punishment by ideological luck
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28-03-2016, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 06:20 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(27-03-2016 10:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 10:21 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How exactly did Jesus die for the sins of the world? Explain how and when did that happen please.
I'm not disagreeing with you here. I just seek your logic.

Apart from the examples of blameless people I listed from reading the bible verses I have a lot of examples of perfect beings other than Jesus in the bible as well.
Here is the list:
Job 1:1] There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


Genesis 17:1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2nd Kings 20:3] I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.


This proves before Christ man where walking in perfection doing the will of the Lord. Jesus never said, "I am the only perfect person!" Or "I am and nobody else is perfect!" This is a hollywood gospel from TV, radio, church preachers from the pit of hell. If Jesus was the only perfect man then the bible would be wrong and Jesus told a lie!

Matthew 5:48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Paul and Peter preached about perfection

2nd Cor. 13:9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Romans 12:2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phillippians 3:15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

James 1:4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

1st Peter 5:10] But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Amen, when is God going to make you perfect? When you start reading and doing what the bible says, it is all conditional from Adam and Eve to the last word in Revelation.

John 14:23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You spoke about Jesus being the only sinless man in the bible.
I found examples of blameless and perfect men in the bible, so I assumed sinless does not mean the same as blameless and perfect.
I just want to know what you mean by sinless if it doesn't carry the same meaning as blameless and perfect.
I'm kind of liking the Jesus concept but this part was a bit confusing for me.

Now I tried to rationalize it a bit and I came up with the theory that we can still be blameless and perfect as a man but still sinful in the eyes of God. Possibly due to something our fathers and mothers did, maybe Adam & Eve.
The problem with that rationalization is that it's not up to us to fix our sins since no matter how perfect or blameless we are we can still be sinful in the eyes of God.
I assumed for God to forgive us we have to repent. Therefore absent any form of repentance we cannot be saved from our inherited sin.
Is repentance not a pre-requisite of being perfect or blameless? If not then why should any Christian try to be blames and perfect in the first place? I assume if God still wants us to be blameless and perfect even though he doesn't threaten us with eternal damnation it is just something that can make him happy, but the absence of which cannot make him angry.
Now I have another dilemma. You see Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden and eventually died since they were told the wages of sin is death. Adam & Eve had asked for forgiveness but they were still not given heaven by God. This means that God still reserves the power to not forgive you even when you repent. It is not a fail safe way to enter into heaven.
If this were true then it is quite possible being blameless, perfect & repentful gives you a ticket to a better reward in heaven than someone who is not blameless & perfect but still repentful. However God still has the right to refuse admission.
Now i like the idea of increasing the chances of me getting into heaven and also getting a better spot in heaven, but that's dependent on what heaven is as I may not actually like heaven when I get there. That's another topic I hope to discuss with you.
That being said I find Christianity (were it true) a good opportunity to increase my standard of living after I die, assuming that we live on after death.
Another point to note is if the wages of sin are death and not eternal damnation then that would still be a better option for me since I prefer not to live than to suffer for eternity. I will need some clarification on this since at the end of our discussion if I do not become a Christian and Christianity proves to be true I would still hope to achieve the lesser of the two punishments & to know how to ensure I get the lesser punishment if I messed up the repentance thing.

My next question is thus:
Where does Jesus fit into all of this?

As I rationalized earlier, according to Christian based logic, there is no sure guarantee something I do will always give me heaven since God still reserves the right of admission even when you try do everything he asks.
Therefore the problem with sin is that only God knows how to fix it & only he has the power to do so.

Now there exists another more important issue than all the rationalization I just attempted to do.
The possibility that there exists a more complicated set of reasons why I should believe in Christianity which I quite possible never be able to rationalize since I am not on par with God as far as wholistic logic is concerned.
That being said however if there is no way to achieve God's wholistic logic then why should I even believe anything a Christian tells me since they themselves would not be able to rationalize the logic to know if it's truly logical.
For all I know God really intended to tell us to be Atheists but due to our inability to understand his logic we misinterpreted it to mean we should be Christians.
How does a Christian know when and where to draw the line on logic if the argument is true that we can never fully understand God's logic.
Is it only when you become a Cristian you can finally understand God's logic? This would require me to dishonestly assume that Christianity is true first before I can know if it really is true.
I suppose this is where Jesus fits into all of this since we don't have to accept that Chrisitanity is true to achieve God's logic. This would place Jesus at the center of the discussion as to why I should first accept Jesus' sacrifice to achieve God's logic for the purpose of me understanding why becoming a Christian is good for my real estate choices in the after life.
The problem I am now faced with is this:
We already established that only repentance can give you a ticket into heaven, whilst blamlessness and perfection can get you a better location in heaven. So understanding God's logic was never really a pre-requisite for me to get into heaven.
It would appear that Jesus sacrifice can be the only humanly logical part of this story or without it I have no reason other than insanity to Honestly accept that Jesus truly sacrificed himself for me. Let's examine this supposed human logic that God isn't keeping from us.
So the question now becomes how does one repent for something without first becoming a Christian by accepting that Jesus sacrificed himself for us.
To do this I need further clarification on what is meant by "accept that Jesus sacrificed himself for us"
I tried to rationalize this but I hit a stumbling block when I came across the Christian story of the resurrection. You see if Jesus never fully died and is still alive in heaven more powerful than when he was on earth I cannot possibly fathom what he sacrificed. A sacrifice is supposed to be a loss so wherein did Jesus lose something? It was not his existence & the fact he is part God means he owns everything including the body he supposedly lost. If he wanted he could just slip back into it seeing that He now has full God powers. I could probably assume that because of the crucifixion he did lose some sleep, it could have been less painful and it was an overall very traumatic experience for the "Son of God" to be put though.
Therefore just by thinking that this guy went through all this pain for me I can start my journey to heavenly real estate.
Now this would all make sense if God didn't claim ownership of everything, which includes time. This is because you cannot truly lose something you alway had the power to get back, this includes painful moments in a man's life and the ability to erase traumatic experiences.
If i am to accept that Jesus somehow sacrificed something i have to come to the realization that the Christian God is not all powerful because he has the ability to lose stuff and no power to bring it back.
The Christian logic of an all powerful God with the ability to give me anything I desire has now faded from the realm of logic before I can accept Jesus sacrifice.
This now brings me full circle to the question that started my whole line of logic. Why should I become a Christian?
You see why put my trust in a less than all powerful God that he will give me something I desire when I die?
As far as Christian logic is concerned I do not truly know God's logic or if what he has in store for me when I die will be of any good to me. Suppose in God's logic his idea of heaven is what I would consider hell. I shudder to think I would go through all of this only to be given eternal punishment because I didn't really know what God was offering me if I become a Christian.
Now let's just assume for a second that I had the power to refuse God's reward/punishment after accepting Jesus sacrifice and given God's logic.
This brings me to the topic of conversion. I have heard many stories of Christians that accepted Jesus sacrifice yet opted out of Christianity at a later date.
These converts when asked why they converted could not explain God's rewards & logic from the epoch of their Christianity so I am forced to assume 3 things:
1. God's rewards are so great no one that has ever truly seen it has ever walked away
Or
2. They never honestly accepted Jesus sacrifice to attain God's logic.
Or
3. God brainwashes you after you accept Jesus sacrifice and could have your way with you from there
The problem with point 1 is that no professed Christian has the ability to tell what God's logic & reward is, even though they know what it is. Their ability to communicate properly what they understand is removed from them. It would appear God limits your communication skills the instant you become a Christian.
If this is the case then we should stop here since nowhere in this logic was it established that I want to lose my ability to communicate in return for a chance at heavenly real estate.
Point 3 just turns me into a zombie.
Ofcourse if this not an issue for other people then Christianity would be perfect for them (if it were true)
Now this brings me to the topic of you CotW.
If you possess the knowledge of God's logic and rewards but lack the ability to tell me what it is even if it is good or bad for me, how can I trust what you want to tell me about Christianity is going to be good for me?

The equation thus follows:
Say you accept Jesus sacrifice + zombie accept God's reward of heaven + zombie repentance = heavenly ticket for a zombie
Zombie Heavenly ticket + God's admission = heaven for a zombie
Zombie Heaven + Blameless zombie + Perfect zombie = higher heaven for a zombie

I'm not too impressed with Zombie Heaven logic.
There is another possibility that God threatens every truly professed Christian so that they don't speak about his true motives, logic or rewards. This would explain why so many Christians are unable to explain logically why Christianity is so great but they still have the ability to say that it is.

Now for another point I alluded to earlier:
What if I don't like the reward God has in store for me. Suppose God wants to feed me gob stoppers for eternity, I will eventually get bored of it. I know myself. Is God going to change who I am just to make me accept his rewards? This would make me someone different than I am now and I am not quite ready to stop existing for this new being to be born.

Now I have already stated that I don't really do things without some form of impending reward, so it shouldn't really bother me what God is getting from all of this so long as I am getting something.
That being said I think it is only fair to question the motives of someone you are about to make a deal with, especially if that deal could end you up a zombie.
So what's in it for God? There exists nothing I can think of that I can possibly give a being that is supposed to be all powerful & all knowing.
This isn't such a big issue though because we already established that the Christian God has limits. Maybe there is something that we can give God that he cannot possibly give himself and thus we can establish a motive for all that he has done.
Surely one can expect that God must have motive or else God would be random, thus Christianity would be random and there would be no guarantees.
So I think it's a fair assumption tht God has motives.
If God has motives & he wants something from us, although I'm not quite sure what it is yet it is fair to say the possibility exists we may have some type of bargaining power over God.
I'm liking this idea so I will follow this logic a bit further.
What could we possibly give to God that he doesn't already know, and doesn't already have?
Free will comes to mind. The ability to think freely. Free thoughts are probably the only thing of value that a human being can give to the Christian God.
Maybe he is lonely and therefore the needs us and our freedom of thought to satisfy the need.
If I follow this train of thought you may not like where it leads but I think in all fairness we should consider the possibility.
What could a Christian offer God if he changes your identity to something he can control and force to worship and praise him for eternity. He already owns you & knows what you are going to do for all of eternity so there is nothing you can give to God.
I cannot fathom what God truly wants but I can Empathize with such a being and determine what I would do if I were God in such a situation of loneliness.
I would create things that can communicate freely with me & seek the company of the ones that are less likely to do everything I expect of them.
I would need to filter the ones with more free will to be closer to me so I can enjoy their random company for as long as I can.
This filter would have to be one where my true motives are not known or the ones that wish to do everything I ask might pretend to be full of free will and I will be plagued with them until such time as I finally create a filter.
Therefore I need to stay hidden and observe them. I need to find the ones that are less likely to do exactly what I say and remove them from my company in preference of the ones that will object to me the most.
I will test them for some time without any real evidence of my existence except what I tell them to do and see which one of these free willed beings will oppose my instructions with the sheer power of free will. The ones that will object to my instructions and even go so far as to claim I don't exist. These are the ones I wish to share the company of. I must fool the masses and find the ones who can see through my deception. Such creatures would be my friends for I have no use of the ones that cannot think for themselves.
Therefore I have come to the assumption that Christianity might very well be a way for God to get rid of the rejects and find the people he has always desired to be in the Company of... The Atheists.

Have you ever once stopped to consider maybe God really does exist & he has been diliberately lying to us all along?
If God really does exist I wouldn't worship him as a God, I would pity him as a friend.
The best way to live forever in the afterlife without being turned into zombies by a weak God is to be an Atheist. Not just any Atheist will do, the most inwardly honest, unashamed, doubting Atheist is the ones that would be most desired to share the company of a weak God.

You expect me to read all of that? Laughat
I have no expectations from anyone here.
I only seek your logic.
I won't ask you to join Team Skeptic
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28-03-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 04:58 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So is COW still curious if and why some atheists think of someone believing and talking about god is sounding like someone talking about santa, the easter bunny, and fairies?

If that was the case I would think even thinking about how some christians happen to think of other religions and such animalistic & polytheistic ones especially.

It's so typical of xtians. They think that Atheists are a push over so they come and try pushing us over. Then they find that they are intellectually incapable. It's part of their arrogance.

I've posted a number of questions knowing he couldn't address them. He couldn't. Yet, he bullshitted and copied stuff off the net in an attempt to prove otherwise.

I've posted a video identifying what an evil cult xtianity is. He can continue to ignore it but it will change nothing. Xtianity is an evil cult - regardless of whether he ignores it.

In all honesty, cow is finished. He doesn't have the intellect to cut it at this level.

He's also dishonest, which again, is typical of xtians. His thread is entitled "Questions for Atheists". All he's done is to proselytize - oh, and bull shit.

cow - give it up, boy. You have been trashed.

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28-03-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 05:23 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 10:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You expect me to read all of that? Laughat
I have no expectations from anyone here.
I only seek your logic.
I won't ask you to join Team Skeptic

Twat

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28-03-2016, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 05:57 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Question for atheists...
(28-03-2016 04:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 11:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  No, I responded with a paradox which shows the absurdity of infinity,

You claimed Hilbert's Paradox shows infinity to be absurd. You are wrong; it shows infinity to be non-intuitive. You do not understand Hilbert or infinity.
Wikipedia Wrote:Hilbert's paradox is a veridical paradox: it leads to a counter-intuitive result that is provably true.

Cantor's diagonalization and Hilbert's Hotel are some of the most elegant examples of proof by contradiction. But I think there is a group of mathematicians called constructivists (I think) who reject proof by contradiction. Yes? Dunno whether they are fringe or manistream or just creepy like Chas.

Didn't we have a thread on just this before? I'll try to dig that up. It's interesting.

(28-03-2016 11:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You have no fish to fry, little boy.

Krill.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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